§ Lords Amendment No. 71: In page 95, line 15, leave out "shorter" and insert "longer".
§ Read a Second time.
§ Mr. SwinglerI beg to move, That this House cloth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
Perhaps it would be convenient for the House to take Lords Amendments Nos. 72, 73 and 74 and the Government Amendments that have been tabled in lieu of the Lords Amendments.
I hope that we can reach agreement very quickly on this point. The overall effect of the Lords Amendments here is to remove from Clause 67 the original provision that a licensing authority may, for administrative convenience, grant an operator's licence for a shorter period than the normal five year duration, and to substitute a provision that in those circumstances the licence may be granted for a longer period.
There is no dispute that because of the changes in the licensing system, some flexibility about the duration of the 691 granting of licences must be permitted to the licensing authorities, for administrative convenience, otherwise there will be a log-jam at a particular time. The argument has been whether the licensing authority in varying the duration period should make it shorter or longer. That is why we have put down the Amendments. The effect of them is that for administrative convenience, the licensing authority may grant licences for a period either shorter or longer than five years. I hope that it will be felt that both sides have got their way if this compromise solution is acceptable.
It is quite right under these circumstances, since both sides appreciate the work done by the licensing authorities and their vast experience, that they should be given complete discretion. Because of the transitional period during the change-over to the new system a licensing authority may, for administrative purposes, wish to grant licences for either longer or shorter periods than five years.
§ Mr. J. H. OsbornThe Minister of State has been most persuasive and has dealt with some of the finer points raised in another place. Lord St. Oswald and others asked why there should not be longer or shorter periods. The Amendment, by the insertion of the word "other" instead of "shorter", goes somewhere to meeting some of the finer flights of oratory in another place.
I must ask the Minister of State to see the point of view of the operator of a fleet of vehicles. He and the Government seem utterly to fail to understand the position of a person earning his living by running a vehicle or a fleet of vehicles. The operator who is an owner fully understands and accepts, or may accept, particularly if he is well versed in the modern ways of transport, the need for efficiency and the need to comply with the requirements of the quality licence as such.
But, the operator having achieved that, for that licence for administrative convenience, because there is a period of change, at the behest of the licensing authority to be altered for a shorter time—perhaps there will be no objection to a longer period—may mean that the operator's whole plan for financing his very way of life will be jeopardised for the convenience of the licensing authority.
692 We do not want to hit the licensing authorities, because they have professional tasks to perform, but bureaucracy has been unduly kind to the licensing authorities and the operator of a medium-sized business, or owning his own fleet, because of administrative convenience and change, having once been awarded a licence, may suddenly find that it is taken from him through no fault of his own in order that a suitable and convenient programme for the licensing authority can be arranged, although that original wording has now been changed to read so that it is now if the licensing authority is of the opinion that it is "desirable".
This is a bureaucrat's paradise, not that the licensing authorities have asked for it. It gives them power to act in an offhand way and it will discourage operators, because they will have no certainty that, once having been granted a licence for five years, or whatever time it is, even if they are observing its conditions, they will continue to hold it. I hope that the Minister will understand the point of view of a person who earns his living on the road. He has gone some way to meet the arguments of the other place, but I shall urge my hon. Friends not to accept his proposition.
§ Mr. G. CampbellWe suggested these Amendments at earlier stages in this House, but, because of our guillotine, we were not able to do justice to them, although the other place has had time to consider this subject. The result is the Amendments by the Government, which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. J. H. Osborn) has indicated, make an improvement, but still leave power to shorten the duration of the licence for the convenience of the authority. We welcome the proposed addition whereby the period of the licence can be extended, a proposal not previously in the Bill, but we firmly resist the proposal that the period could be shortened simply because the licensing authority considered that desirable.
The wording has been changed. Originally it was administrative convenience, but now it is administrative desirability. This will lead to uncertainty as to whether the licence will run for the period stated, or, for some reason thought to be desirable, be terminated, perhaps suddenly, 693 before the time stated. This will make it difficult for operators who have been given licences to be certain that the period attaching to them has any significance, and I agree with my hon. Friend that this is a matter on which we should stand firm.
§ Mr. SwinglerBy leave of the House, I think that there is some misunderstanding and I am glad to have the opportunity to clear it up. It has been pointed out to me that, on a superficial reading of our Amendments, some people seem to have sprung to the conclusion that we are going beyond the argument of administrative convenience and the programme of work with which the licensing authorities will be faced and that we are widening their scope to vary the duration. I make it clear that that is not so. If our Amendments were incorporated, the paragraph would read:
shall be a period longer or shorter than five years if the licensing authority is of opinion that it is desirable so to direct in order to arrange a suitable and convenient programme of work for the licensing authority".In case there is any misunderstanding, I emphasise that it is being done simply and solely on that ground. In other words, we want to stick to the five-year duration for licences.
§ 8.45 p.m.
§ Mr. A. P. Costain (Folkestone and Hythe)As a number of these people may be buying their vehicles on some financial arrangement, or possibly a hire-purchase arrangement, may I ask the hon. Gentlemen whether he appreciates that this shortening of the licensing period may make it difficult to arrange finance?
§ Mr. SwinglerI appreciate that, and no doubt the licensing authorities will take that into account. That is why, as far as possible, we wish to stick to the five-year duration for licences. Under Clause 93 virtually all the licences will be issued within a very short space of time. It can therefore be seen that if all the licences are for a five year duration, they will all come up for renewal
§ at virtually the same time, which will present the licensing authority with an administrative problem.
§ That is simply and solely the point that we are making. There has been nothing between us on the administrative aspect of this issue. This discretionary power is given to the licensing authority to vary the duration simply and solely to ensure that the situation to which I have referred does not occur, namely, that all the licences come up for renewal in a very short space of time. Having considered all the arguments, I think that it is fair to leave it to the judgment of the licensing authorities on how to achieve what we want. They are the people who will take into account the interests of the operator, as well as the application of the standards laid down here.
§ Throughout these proceedings we have heard the argument of shorter versus longer. What we are endeavouring to do is to give the licensing authorities a complete discretion so that they can arrange a fair spread of their work in dealing with licence applications, and, later, with their renewal. We think that they should be able to vary the licence duration and grant it for less than five years, or for longer. We are prepared to leave it to the licensing authorities.
§ Mr. G. CampbellThe hon. Gentleman gave us an interpretation in case we had misunderstood the meaning of his Amendment to Lords Amendment No. 73. There is no misunderstanding about this. The hon. Gentleman may think that it is a small point, but it is one to which we attach significance because we do not see why there should be this discretion to shorten the period of a licence. We understand what the hon. Gentleman is saying.
§ Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment: —
§ The House divided: Ayes 250, Noes 192.
697| Division No. 300.] | AYES | [8.48 p.m. |
| Albu, Austen | Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Bishop, E. S. |
| Alldritt, Walter | Barnes, Michael | Blackburn, F. |
| Anderson, Donald | Barnett, Joel | Boardman, H. (Leigh) |
| Archer, Peter | Baxter, William | Booth, Albert |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Bence, Cyril | Boston, Terence |
| Ashley, Jack | Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) | Boyden, James |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Bidwell, Sydney | Braddock, Mrs. E. M. |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Hooley, Frank | Orme, Stanley |
| Brooks, Edwin | Hough ton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Oswald, Thomas |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) |
| Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) | Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Padley, Walter |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Howie, W. | Palmer, Arthur |
| Brown, Bob(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Hoy, James | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Park, Trevor |
| Buchan, Norman | Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Butter, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Pavitt, Laurence |
| Cant, R. B. | Hunter, Adam | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Hynd, John | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) | Pentland, Norman |
| Coe, Denis | Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) |
| Coleman, Donald | Janner, Sir Barnett | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Concannon, J. D. | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Jeger, George (Goole) | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Jeger, Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras, S.) | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Probert, Arthur | |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Rankin, John |
| Crawshaw. Richard | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Rees, Merlyn |
| Cronin, John | Judd, Frank | Reynolds, Rt. Hn. G. W. |
| Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Kelley, Richard | Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Kenyon, Clifford | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) | Robinson, Rt.Hn.Kenneth(St.P'c'as) |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) | Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.) |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Roebuck, Roy |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Lawson, George | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) |
| Davits, Harold (Leek) | Leadbitter, Ted | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Ledger, Ron | Rowlands, E. |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | Ryan, John |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock) | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.) |
| Delargy, Hugh | Lestor, Miss Joan | Sheldon, Robert |
| Dell, Edmund | Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) | Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E. |
| Dempsey, James | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Dewar, Donald | Lipton, Marcus | Short, Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne) |
| Dickens, James | Lomas, Kenneth | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Dobson, Ray | Loughlin, Charles | Silverman, Julius |
| Doig, Peter | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Dunn, James A. | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Slater, Joseph |
| Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Small, William |
| Eadie, Alex | McCann, John | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | MacColl, James | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Ellis, John | MacDermot, Niall | Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John |
| English, Michael | Macdonald, A. H. | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. |
| Ensor, David | McGuire, Michael | Swain, Thomas |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | McKay, Mrs. Margaret | Swingler, Stephen |
| Faulds, Andrew | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Symonds, J. B. |
| Fernyhough, E. | Mackie, John | Taverne, Dick |
| Finch, Harold | Maclennan, Robert | Thomson, Rt. Hn. George |
| Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Thornton, Ernest |
| Foley, Maurice | McNamara, J. Kevin | Tinn, James |
| Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | MacPherson, Malcolm | Tomney, Frank |
| Ford, Ben | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Urwin, T. W. |
| Forrester, John | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Fraser, John (Norwood) | Manuel, Archie | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Freeson, Reginald | Mapp, Charles | Wallace, George |
| Galpern, Sir Myer | Marks, Kenneth | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Gardner, Tony | Marquand, David | Weitzman, David |
| Garrett, W. E. | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard | Wellbeloved, James |
| Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | Mayhew, Christopher | Wells, William (walsall, N.) |
| Gourlay, Harry | Mendelson, J. J. | Whitaker, Ben |
| Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Millan, Bruce | Whitlock, William |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Gregory, Arnold | Moonman, Eric | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Grey, Charles (Durham) | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Wililmas, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Morris, John (Aberavon) | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. | Moyle, Roland | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Harper, Joseph | Neal, Harold | Winnick, David |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Newens, Stan | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Hazell, Bert | Oakes, Gordon | Woof, Robert |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Ogden, Eric | |
| Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | O'Malley, Brian | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hilton, W. S. | Oram, Albert E. | Mr. Ioan L. Evans and |
| Hobden, Dennis | Orbach, Maurice | Mr. Neil McBride. |
| NOES | ||
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Bell, Ronald |
| Astor, John | Balniel, Lord | Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Berry, Hn. Anthony |
| Awdry, Daniel | Batsford, Brian | Bessell, Peter |
| Biffen, John | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Hastings, Stephen | Percival, Ian |
| Blaker, Peter | Hawkins, Paul | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Hay, John | Pounder, Sir Rafton |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Braine, Bernard | Heseltine, Michael | Prior, J. M. L. |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Higgins, Terence L. | Pym, Francis |
| Bruce-Cardyne, J. | Hill, J. E. B. | Quennell, Miss J. M. |
| Bryan, Paul | Holland, Philip | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N&M) | Hordern, Peter | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Buck, Antony (Colchester) | Hornby, Richard | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Howell, David (Guildford) | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Burden, F. A. | Hunt, John | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey |
| Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) | Iremonger, T. L. | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Carlisle, Mark | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Royle, Anthony |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) | Scott, Nicholas |
| Clark, Henry | Jopling, Michael | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Clegg, Walter | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Sharples, Richard |
| Cooke, Robert | Kerby, Capt. Henry | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Cooper-Key, Sir Neill | Kershaw, Anthony | Silvester, Frederick |
| Cordle, John | Kitson, Timothy | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Corfield, F. V. | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Smith, John (London & W'minster) |
| Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) | Lambton, Viscount | Speed, Keith |
| Crouch, David | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Stainton, Keith |
| Crowder, F. P. | Lane, David | Summers, Sir Spencer |
| Currie, G. B. H. | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Tapsell, Peter |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart) |
| Dance, James | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Dean, Paul | Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) | Teeling, Sir William |
| Longden, Gilbert | Temple, John M. | |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W, F. (Ashford) | Loveys, W. H. | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Doughty, Charles | Lubbock, Eric | Tilney, John |
| Eden, Sir John | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | MacArthur, Ian | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain | Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| Errington, Sir Eric | McMaster, Stanley | Waddington, David |
| Farr, John | Maddan, Martin | Walker, Peter (Worcester) |
| Fisher, Nigel | Maginnis, John E. | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn.. Sir Derek |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | Wall, Patrick |
| Fortescue, Tim | Marten, Neil | Walters, Dennis |
| Foster, Sir John | Mawby, Ray | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Webster, David |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Glyn, Sir Richard | Miscampbell, Norman | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | Montgomery, Fergus | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Goodhart, Philip | More, Jasper | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Goodhew, Victor | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Gower, Raymond | Murton, Oscar | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Grant, Anthony | Neave, Airey | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Grant-Ferris, R. | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Wright, Esmond |
| Grieve, Percy | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Wylie, N. R. |
| Gurden, Harold | Nott, John | |
| Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Onslow, Cranley | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Osborn, John (Hallam) | Mr. Reginald Eyre and |
| Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Mr. Hector Munro. |
| Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
§ Amendment made to the Bill in lieu of the Lords Amendment last disagreed to: In page 95, line 15, leave out 'shorter' and insert 'other'.—[Mr. Swingler.]
§ Subsequent Lords Amendment disagreed to.
§ Lords Amendment No. 73: In page 95, line 25, leave out from "made" to end of line 29, disagreed to.
§ Amendment in lieu of the Lords Amendment last disagreed to: In page 95, line 20, leave out from 'section' to 'in' in line 27 and insert:
698§ (a) shall be a period shorter than five years—
- (i) if the applicant for the licence so requests; or
- (ii) if the application is made by a person who does not hold an operator's licence when the application is made;
§ (b) shall be a period longer or shorter than five years if the licensing authority is of opinion that it is desirable so to direct.—[Mr. Swingler.]
§ Consequential Amendment to the Bill agreed to: In page 101, line 22, leave out "(c)" and insert "(b)".—[Mr. Swingler.]
§ Subsequent Lords Amendment disagreed to.