CONDITIONS AS TO TRANSPORT MANAGERS (Hansard, 17 October 1968)

§ Mr. Carmichael
I suggest, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that it would be for the convenience of the House to take, at the same time, the following consequential Lords Amendments—Nos. 69, 214, 216, 217, 218, 222, 223, 224 and 234.

Mr. Deputy Speaker
I think that would be for the convenience of the House.

§ Mr. Carmichael
I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
The purpose of the Amendment is purely precautionary, to allow the transport manager's licence to be in different grades. Discussions are going on at present in the Transport Managers Licensing Committee set up by the industry, but it is necessary to have powers to provide for licences of different classes in the Bill reflecting the different grades of qualification required for different types of establishments and different types of fleet.

§ Mr. G. Campbell
These Amendments are a very important group which are the result of proposals put forward in the other place by the Government. We on this side of the House are sorry that we do not have time this evening to give these new proposals the examination which they deserve.
The Government were much more forthcoming on the whole subject of transport managers' licences in the other place. They have now set up a committee of the industries concerned, outside the House, to consider what the transport manager's licence and the qualifications 687 for it should be, and they have introduced the Amendments to provide for different classes of licence.
We should like to know how many classes are thought to be necessary, even approximately, and a great deal more information. But I will not press this on the Government tonight, because there is not time to go into it. I would only ask that the Government should seek to keep the House informed and give us opportunities to discuss all the developments in this important field, which is of concern to all operators of road vehicles over 30 cwt. unladen or 3½ tons gross weight.
Where the question arises of an operator with only one or two eligible vehicles—which was much discussed in this House and the other place—we should have preferred such an operator to need only an operator's licence and not himself have to hold a transport manager's licence as well when he himself may not, although a very conscientious operator, be a mechanic or expert in the internal combustion engine. We know that the development of the transport manager's licence and the qualifications for holders will now be the subject of regulations. Regulations which come before the House can only be accepted or thrown out; we cannot amend them.
One important thing that has emerged is that the Minister's suggestion during the Report stage in this House that a local garage proprietor or mechanic can be the holder of a transport manager's licence on behalf of a farmer or small businessman was a preposterous suggestion. A Minister in the other place made this clear when he stated: I do not wish, and I do not think that my right hon. Friend the Minister would wish, to argue very strongly that the answer to the small man's problems is to be found in the garage, I do not think it was intended to be other than a case, or a possibility, which might arise."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 3rd July, 1968; c. 366.] So, as we thought at the time, the Minister was, to put it bluntly, talking nonsense to us that evening when he was trying to explain away the position on that basis.
We commend the Government's setting up of the Committee and their expressed intention to have close consultation with the industries affected. There is still a 688 great deal more about the concept of transport managers' licences and the classes the Government have in mind which not only we but many persons concerned outside this House would like to know. There is no argument here about the need for safety and good maintenance. On this everyone is agreed, that we do not want industry to be swamped with paper, red tape, or impracticable requirements.

§ Mr. Awdry
I do not want to be offensive, but I feel that on the question of transport managers' licences we have been treated shabbily by the Government. In Standing Committee, the Guillotine fell about three minutes after the subject was opened, when I was moving an Amendment, and we received no information as to how the system would work. On Report, we had a full debate on transport managers, and that was the first occasion when the Minister was drawn in. He had not been on the job long, he was thinking aloud and that was the occasion when he told us that perhaps the garage proprietor could be a transport manager. We now know that that is not right.
Their Lordships discussed this matter last week on Report, and from reading the OFFICIAL REPORT we learn of the existence of this Committee that has been set up by the industry under the chairmanship of Mr. Derek Joyce. The spokesman in the other place, Lord Hughes, said: This is a Committee which has been set up by the industry itself to look at this problem, and it is still considering the problem.

Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. I am not sure whether the hon. Member is quoting what a Government spokesman said in another place. If not, it will be out of order.

§ Mr. Awdry
I was doing just that; I was quoting from the Government spokesman, and he was dealing with this Committee. If I may just complete that short passage, he went on to say: …but the position is that this Committee is still considering the matter, and my right hon. Friend the Minister feels that it would be quite wrong for him to come to any firm conclusions on this very important point before he has been able to consider the report which the transport managers' licence 689 committee of the industry will be making in due course."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 7th October, 1968 Vol. 296, c. 893.] I gather that in the other place the Government still did not know how the system would work. They have thought about the idea generally and are asking the industry to tell them how it will work, and hon. Members will have no chance of ever stating their views about how the system will work. As my hon. Friend has said, regulations will come before the House in due course, we will either have to take them or throw them out, and, as the Whips will be on, the regulations will be forced through. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us what ideas he has in mind, and what sort of classes there will be for transport managers' licences?

§ Mr. Carmichael
With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to say that the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Awdry) cleared up one point that I was anxious to make, which is that this Committee was set up not by the Government but by the industry on its own initiative. As the hon. Member said, the chairman is Mr. Derek Joyce of Shell-Mex. Also on the Committee is an officer of the Institute of Transport, and members from the Industrial Transport Association, the Institute of Road Transport Engineers, the Institute of Traffic Administration, the Road Haulage Association and the Traders Road Transport Association. The Ministry and the Road Transport Industry Training Board are represented by assessors.
While there may not have been sufficient time in Committee to go into the matter as thoroughly as we would have wished, the Minister and the previous Minister have always maintained that this is something that will be worked out with the industry. In fact, we went further and said that we hoped the industry itself would ultimately take over the entire running of the system and make the transport manager's job a recognised professional qualification. We anticipate that it will be run by the industry, and we are very grateful to the industry for setting up the Committee.
It is true that there will be decisions made from time to time. I cannot now say how many classes of transport managers there will be; this is for the 690 Committee to recommend, and it would be presumptuous of me to give an idea now. As the Minister considers the deliberations of the Committee, and as these deliberations come in, I give an undertaking that the House will be kept informed of the steps proposed.

§ Mr. Awdry
I am very grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary. Does he mean that before the regulations are put before the House there will be an opportunity for the House to consider this matter? This is the important thing. Is he saying that the Minister will tell the House in good time the sort of plan he has in mind so that the House can debate it?

§ Mr. Carmichael
I will undertake that the House will be kept informed as the information and decisions come from the Committee and are examined by the Minister before the regulations are finally put before the House.