§ Again considered in Committee
§ Question again proposed.
§ Mr. HoggI am delighted to think that we are making progress, and I intend to help the Committee with that commendable object. But I must just say this to the Government, if I may be serious for more than a moment: most Governments could manage, without loss of dignity, to put the Whips on a little less often than they do. I should have had the Whips off on all the series of debates we have had on this subject and on similar matters, and I do not think that the Government would have lost a single Division had they done so.
I now turn briefly away from the constitutional issue which ensures the victory of the Government against a divided Opposition by a distorted and swollen majority, to the merits of the case. The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) in rather a bitter speech, I thought more bitter than the circumstances justified, accused my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton) who supported the Amendment, which was moved from the benches opposite, of a mistrust of the electorate.
The argument, which was repeated by several hon. Members opposite, was that this was the kind of argumentation which had always been presented against the forty shilling franchise, the enfranchisement of women, and every advance in the franchise which had ever taken place. But that argument proves too much, if it proves anything at all. I do not think that any one of us mistrusts the electorate. We should not be here if we mistrusted it too much. What we are in the presence of is a question of judgment. Everybody knows that it would be insane to offer the vote to children of nine or 10, and everybody knows that it would be unduly restrictive to offer the vote only to those above the age of, say, 25. The question is where one must draw the line, a question which is posed in the knowledge that one must draw the line somewhere, and that it must essentially be a question of degree, and not of principle, not of philosophy, but of practical judgment.
431 It may be that the 18s have it. But the two points I ventured to put before the Committee had nothing to do with mistrust. They were, first of all, that where, in the nature of things, one has to make an arbitrary decision based not upon some overriding principle but upon a balance of advantages, there was something to be said for the traditional age because it was traditional—not because the traditional age has any magic in it but because it is not manifestly worse than any other and because it carries with it a long tradition of support and authority.
I admit that, left to myself, I would have left the age at 21. But I choose the age of 20 in support of the Amendment because it forms the consensus of a number of universally respected members of this Committee. But I cannot see any other basis upon which a decision can be made. I do not say that this is ideal, but some decision has to be made in one direction or another. Why should 18 be
§ better than 17 or 16 or 15? I do not know.
§ I believe that, if one started allowing people to make contracts and then held them to them at the age of 15, there would be a public outcry. I believe that there is a relationship between the other responsible acts which an individual has to make and the right and privilege of voting. I see the argument in favour of making them the same, but I do not see the argument in favour of changing them unless there is an overwhelming case to do so.
§ You may think, Mr. Irving, that this is unduly conservative. That is what I am about. I am a Conservative and I am not the only conservative in the Committee on either side. But, speaking for myself, and with all these reservations, I shall vote for the Amendment.
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 121. Noes 275.
435| Division No. 10. | AYES | [10.8 p.m. |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | Neave, Airey |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Gower, Raymond | Nicholls, Sir Harmar |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Grant, Anthony | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Grant-Ferris, R. | Onelow, Cranley |
| Batsford, Brian | Gresham Cooke, R. | Page, Graham (Crosby) |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. EdmundS) | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
| Bennett, Sir Frederlc (Torquay) | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) | Hail-Davis, A. G. F. | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) |
| Benv. Hn. Anthony | Harrison, Col. Slr Harwood (Eye) | Peel, John |
| Black, sir Cyril | Hastings, Stephen | Pike, Miss Mervyn |
| Blaker, Peter | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Pounder, Rafton | |
| Body, Richard | Heseltine, Michael | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Higgins, Terence L. | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) |
| Boston, Terence | Hill, J. E. B. | Prior, J. M. L. |
| Brewis, John | Hirst, Geoffrey | Pym, Francis |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Hobden, Dennis | Quennell, Miss J. M. |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Holland, Philip | Rhys WiUiams, Sir Brandon |
| Buck, Antony (Colchester) | Holland, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Ridsdale. Julian |
| Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nalm) | Howell, David (Gulldford) | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Carlisle, Mark | Hunt, John | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Clark, Henry | Hutchison, Michael Chark | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Clegg, Walter | Irivne, Byant Godman (Rye) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whltby) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mingten) |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Jones, J. ldwal (Wrexham) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Cordle, John | Kenyon, CIifford | Stainton, Keim |
| Corfield, F. V. | Kershaw, Anthony | Stodart, Anthony |
| Costain, A. P. | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Tapsell, Peter |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Digby, Simon Wingfield | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Catheart) |
| Doughty, Charles | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) | Temple, John M. |
| Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | MacArthur, Ian | Thatcher, Mm. Margaret |
| Eden, Sir John | Maddan, Martin | Waddington, David |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Maude, Angus | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Elliott,R. W.(N1c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Mawby, Ray | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Emery, Peter | Maxwell-HyslOP, R. J. | wright, Esmond |
| Errimgton, Sir Eric | Miscampbell, Norman | Wylie, N. R. |
| Eyre, Reginald | Mitchetl, David (Basingstoke) | |
| Farr, John | Monro, Hector | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Foster, Sir John | More, Jasper | Mr. C. R. Strauss and |
| Galbraith, Hn. T. C. | Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charler | Sir David Renton. |
| Glover, Sir Douglas | ||
| NOES | ||
| Allaun, Fran4 (Salford, E.) | Faulds, Andrew | Mackenzie, Alasdair(Ross&Crom'ty) |
| Alfdritt, Walter | Fernyhough, E. | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) |
| Allen, Scholefield | Finch, Harold | Mackintosh, John P. |
| Anderson, Donald | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Maclennan, Robert |
| Archer, Peter | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | McMaster, Stanley |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Foot, Rt. Hn. Sir Dingle (Ipswich) | MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) |
| Ashton, J. W. | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Ford, Ben | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Forrester, John | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) |
| Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice | Fortescue, Tim | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) |
| Bagler, Gordon A. T. | Fraser, John (Norwood) | Mallalieu,J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.) |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Freeson, Reginald | Manuel, Archie |
| Balniel, Lord | Galpern, Sir Myer | Mapp, Charles |
| Barnett, Joel | Gardner, Tony | Marks, Kenneth |
| Beaney, Alan | Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Bence, Cyril | Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Mendelson, John |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Mikardo, Ian |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Gregory, Arnold | Millan, Bruce |
| Biffen, John | Grey, Charles (Durham) | Miller, Dr. M. S. |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Mills, Peter (Torrington) |
| Binns, John | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) |
| Bishop, E. S. | Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly) | Molloy, William |
| Booth, Albert | Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) |
| Boyden, James | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Hamling, William | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Braine, Bernard | Hannan, William | Morris, John (Aberavon) |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) |
| Brooks, Edwin | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | Murray, Albert |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Hattersley, Roy | Murton, Oscar |
| Brown,Bob(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Hazell, Bert | Nabarro, Sir Gerald |
| Brown, R. W (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis | Neal, Harold |
| Buchan, Norman | Heffer, Eric S. | Note, John |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'hurn) | Henlg, Stanley | O'Malley, Brian |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M) | Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Orem, Albert E. |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Hilton, W. S. | Orbach, Maurice |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Hooley, Frank | Orme, Stanley |
| Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) | Hooson, Emlyn | Oswald, Thomas |
| Carmichael, Neil | Homer, John | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'en) |
| Carter-Jonec, Lewis | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Owen, Will (Morpeth) |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Hoy, James | Padley, Walter |
| Chapman, Donald | Huckfield, Leslie | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) |
| Coe, Denis | Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Palmer, Arthur |
| Coleman, Donald | Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Pardoe, John |
| Concannon, J. D. | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Park, Trevor |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Pavitt, Laurence |
| Crouch, David | Hunter, Adam | Pearson, Arthur (Potypridd) |
| Crowder, F. P. | Hynd, John | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Iremonger, T. L. | Pentland, Norman |
| Cunningham, Sir Knox | Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E. |
| Currie, G. B. H. | Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Janner, Sir Barnett | Probert, Arthur |
| Dalyell, Tam | Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.) | Rankin, John |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Jenkins, Hugh, (Putney) | Rees, Merlyn |
| Davdison,James(Aberdeenshire,W.) | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Reynolds, Rt. Hn. G. W. |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.) | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Davies, 'lfor (Gower) | Jopling, Michael | Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy |
| Davies, S. 0. (Merthyr) | Kelley, Richard | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Dean, Paul | Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) | Robinson,Rt. Hn. Kenneth(St.P'c'as) |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Rose, Paul |
| Dell, Edmund | Lawson, George | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Dempsey, James | Leadbitter, Ted | Rowlands, E. |
| Dickens, James | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | Ryan, John |
| Dobson, Ray | Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock) | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Lee, John (Reading) | Scott, Nicholas |
| Doig, Peter | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Sharples, Richard |
| Drayson, C. B. | Lestor, Miss Joan | Shaw, Arnold (Hford, S.) |
| Dunn, James A. | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Sheldon, Robert |
| Dunnett, Jack | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | Lomas, Kenneth | Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N,c'tle-u-Tyne) |
| Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Loughlin, Charles | Short, Mrs. Renée(W'hampton N.E.) |
| Eadie, Alex | Lubbock, Eric | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Edelman, Maurice | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Silverman, Julius |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Slater, Joseph |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | McBride, Neil | Small, William |
| Ellis, John | McCann, John | Snow, Julian |
| English, Michael | MacColl, James | Speed, Keith |
| Ensor, David | Macdonald, A. H. | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | McGuire, Michael | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley | |
| Ewing, Mrs. Winifred | Swingler, Stephen |
| Symonds, J. B. | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Taverne, Dick | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) | Winnick, David |
| Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) | Wall, Patrick | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Teeling, Sir William | Wallace, George | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Thomas, Rt. Hn. George | Ward, Dame Irene | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Thomson, Rt. Hn. George | Watkins, David (Consett) | Worsley, Marcus |
| Thornton, Ernest | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) | |
| Tilney, John | Weitzman, David | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Tinn, James | Wellbeloycl, James | Mr. Alan Fitch and |
| Urwin, T. W. | Whitlock, William | Mr. Joseph Harper. |
| Valley, Eric G. | Wilkins, W. A. |
§ The CHAIRMAN, being of the opinion that the principle of the Clause and any matters arising thereon had been adequately discussed in the course of debate on the Amendment proposed thereto, forthwith put the Question, pursuant to Standing Order No. 47 (Debate on Clause or Schedule standing part), That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
436§ Question agreed to.
§ Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ To report Progress and ask leave to sit again.—[Mr. Fitch.]
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.