HC Deb 11 November 1968 vol 773 cc32-6
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Fred Peart)

Mr. Speaker, I should like to take this, the first available opportunity, to correct an answer I gave in reply to a supplementary question following the Business Statement last Thursday.

I said then that any Order to enforce a standstill on the pay of building industry workers would be laid before the House and be subject to the negative Resolution procedure. In fact, a direction imposing a standstill while the matter is considered by the National Board for Prices and Incomes would be under Section 15 of the Prices and Incomes Act, 1966, and not subject to any Parliamentary procedure.

Any Order extending a standstill following a report by the National Board for Prices and Incomes, however, would be made under Section 1 of the 1967 Prices and Incomes Act, and would be debatable under the negative Resolution procedure.

I apologise for the mistake. I thought that I ought to put the record straight in the House as soon as possible.

Mr. Heath

The House is grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for coming here at the first opportunity and making plain the true position on the matter. The House is always generous to a Minister who comes here and makes a correction of this kind.

May I tell the right hon. Gentleman that in explaining the real position he has also made it plain that the House would like to debate this subject if the Government are going ahead with the reference. The real question is how to get the debate. If it is not automatic as a result of the procedure to be followed, can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that if the First Secretary goes ahead there will be a debate?

Mr. Peart

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his remarks. I think that he is right. My reply was to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer), who put down a Motion on this matter—

Sir G. Nabarro

So did we.

Mr. Peart

—as did many other hon. Members, deploring the Government's decision.

I have read carefully what has been said. I should like to study the matter before I give a precise reply about the possibility of a debate. I have every sympathy with what the right hon. Gentleman said, and with what my hon. Friend wished me to note.

Mr. Heffer

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Motion in my name and in the names of many other right hon. and hon. Members has now attracted a total of 101 signatures from this side of the House, apart from the signatures of a few hon. Gentlemen opposite?

[That this House deplores the decision of the Government to refer the modest interim settlement agreed to by the building trade unions and employers to the National Board for Prices and Incomes; further feels that if persisted in then grave industrial unrest could develop in the industry, which can have serious results for the economy; and therefore calls upon the Government to withdraw the reference immediately.]

Does not that indicate a real desire in the House for a full debate on this matter?

Is my right hon. Friend also aware that throughout the whole of the building and engineering industries, on both the workers' and the employers' sides, there is a great deal of feeling on this question? Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it would be scandalous if there were not a debate on this issue?

Mr. Peart

I have noted what my hon. Friend has said. From his point of view he was right to put down a Motion and to draw attention to the matter. As consultations are going on, I think that I should inform my right hon. Friend who is conducting them that as quickly as possible she should make a statement to the House.

Mr. John Page

May I reinforce the gratitude expressed by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition for the speedy and full explanation given by the Leader of the House? May I also reinforce the view that, following the right hon. Gentleman's previous statement, many hon. Members thought that it would be most helpful if, before the direction was published in the London Gazette, there was a debate in the House?

Mr. Peart

I note what the hon. Gentleman says, and I am grateful for his comments. When the matter was brought to my notice, I looked into it carefully and took advice, and I thought it right to inform the hon. Gentleman immediately, which I did.

Mr. Orme

Will my right hon. Friend draw to the attention of his right hon. Friend who is dealing with this matter the fact that if the payment is made for a matter of two weeks on this properly negotiated collective agreement between the employers and the trade unions, and the Government then issue an order stopping payment, this could cause chaos within the building industry? May I urge my right hon. Friend to urge his right hon. Friends to allow this agreement to go forward, as it has been properly negotiated?

Mr. Peart

I assure my hon. Friend that these matters are being discussed by my right hon. Friend with the people concerned. I shall convey my hon. Friend's views to my right hon. Friend.

Sir G. Nabarro

Is it not important that Mr. Aubrey Jones should have the benefit, before considering this important matter, of the advice of and weight of opinion on both sides of the House of Commons? When the matter is referred to Mr. Aubrey Jones, will the responsible Minister make it clear that we require a report quickly, not in three or four months, but in three or four days?

Mr. Peart

I shall convey the views and worries of hon. Members to my right hon. Friend. I shall make arrangements for my right hon. Friend to make a statement. She is at present busy with the consultations. If the hon. Gentleman will leave it to me, I shall deal with it.

Mr. Edwin Wainwright

Does my right hon. Friend realise that hon. Members on both sides of the House appreciate his candour and honesty in apologising for the misunderstanding that he created last Thursday? Will my right hon. Friend tell his right hon. Friend that many of us hope that she will take action to make it unnecessary for such a debate to take place?

Mr. Peart

I shall convey that to my right hon. Friend, but she is busy discussing the matter with the leaders concerned.

Mr. Peyton

While there can be no doubt about either the Parliamentary experience or the courtesy of the right hon. Gentleman, would he not agree that this kind of incident serves as one—

Mr. Speaker

Order. As the Leader of the Opposition has already pointed out, the House is a gracious place, which usually accepts from an hon. Member or from a right hon. Member an expression of regret.

Mr. Peyton

On a point of order.

Mr. Ridley

On a point of order.

Mr. Speaker

Order. Mr. Speaker is powerful, but he cannot take two points of order at once. Mr. Peyton.

Mr. Peyton

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, I should like to apologise to you if I gave you any ground for misunderstanding me to the extent of believing that I was making an attack on the Leader of the House. I said, I thought very clearly, that I appreciated both his courtesy and his Parliamentary experience. I went on to say that in my view, at any rate, this occasion was an indication of the folly of the legislation, and no reflection on the right hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Speaker

I am grateful to the hon. Member.

Mr. Biffen

In view of the importance attached to this industrial dispute in respect of the entire credibility of the Government's prices and incomes policy, can the Leader of the House assure us that if it is decided not to proceed with the direction that decision, too, will be subject to a statement and debate in the House?

Mr. Peart

I do not think that I should get involved today in arguing the credibility of the Government's policy. Many of my hon. Friends take a view similar to that expressed by the hon. Gentleman. I do not deny that. I was thinking merely in terms of making a statement on the issues, having given the House an incorrect answer. I have corrected that, and perhaps I might leave it there.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the circumstances of this case the standstill and the reference are the two matters of great importance and controversy? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman go a little further than he did in reply to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and accept that it would amount to contempt of Parliament for the Government to proceed in this matter without previously taking the view of the House of Commons?

Mr. Peart

I have said that I shall convey the views of hon. Members to my right hon. Friends. I understand the importance of this matter, the Motion having been signed by a number of my hon. Friends and colleagues, and by some hon. Gentlemen opposite. I realise that hon. Members feel very strongly about this subject. I accept what the right hon. Gentleman has said.