Clause 128 (Hansard, 29 May 1968)

§ Mr. James Bennett
I beg to move— [Interruption]—I do not deserve applause except, perhaps, because I have shown

§ Mr. Speaker
It would be for the convenience of the House if, with this 2025 Amendment, we also include Amendments 515, in page 168, line 35, at end insert ' and their subsidiaries ';
No. 516, in page 168, line 37, at end insert ' and their subsidiaries ';
No. 517, in page 168, line 38, after 'authority ', insert' and its subsidiaries ';
No. 518, in page 168, line 42, leave out from ' levels ' to ' it' in line 43;
No. 519, in page 168, line 45, leave out from 'any' to 'with' in line 1, page 169 and insert 'recognised and bona fide trade unions or unions approved by the Trades Union Congress ';
No. 520, in page 169, line 2, leave out 'if the authority so decides ';
No. 521, in page 169, line 13, after 'of' insert 'joint';
No. 522, in page 169, line 19, after 'of', insert 'joint';
No. 523, in page 169, line 21, at end insert: (d) the joint control over the engagement and displacement of servants employed by the authority, whether directly or by a subsidiary of that authority; No. 524, in page 169, line 43, to leave out ' by other persons participating therein' and insert ' with the workers' representatives';
No. 525, in page 170, line 1, leave out 'such';
No. 526, in page 170, line 3, leave out from 'as' to end of line 5 and insert: 'which shall include, as requested by the trade unions concerned—

(a) pay, to include payroll details, methods of payment of servants, managerial, board members and directors emoluments.

(b) labour, to include the number of servants employed by the authority and its subsidiaries, breakdowns of the number of servants employed in each category or grade, changes in methods of work, and labour use, labour turnover, future labour plans, absence and sickness rates, and accident statistics.

(c) finance and production, to include, labour costs per unit of output, cost and pricing structures, financial and production information about the authority or any of its sub-units including industrial plants and garages, turnover, future investments and future investment policies, purchasing policies, and ownership in associated companies and subsidiaries.

(d) promotion, to include the changes in the structure of management, promotion methods and policy.
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(e) training, training policy for the shop-floor, technical and management grades.

(f) any other information which after consultation with the workers' representatives concerned is necessary to enable those persons to participate effectively in the discussion.

§ Mr. Bennett
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Clause 128 deals with the machinery for negotiation and consultation with the staff, and this group of Amendments sets out means for strengthening those processes. The National Freight Corporation will no doubt set up its subsidiaries and, that being so, it may well be that those subsidiaries will act independently of the parent body. So it is essential that consultation with the staff should take place at the appropriate level and not be constantly referred to that parent body.
These Amendments are quite simple inasmuch as they set out to do this. It may be argued that subsidiaries are nowhere mentioned in the Bill, but I think that they will be established; and that is why these Amendments are moved. In Amendment No. 519, the object is to make for clarity. This is why I have brought forward the Amendments. The Clause says: … any organisation appearing to them"— the authorities— to be appropriate … This is vague. I would prefer the stronger wording of my Amendment. Everyone recognises the value of joint consultation, especially in these days. The Clause gives ample scope for it. The Amendments would provide a system whereby the employees could feel part of the undertaking and not outwith it.
Amendment No. 526 deals with the information that the unions should have if they are to take in discussions. I remind my right hon. Friend that the Labour Party issued a document dealing with industrial democracy and I quote from it in the hope that he may feel able to accept my Amendments. It said: It should be a primary aim of the industries under public ownership to give the lead in enabling the worker to realise his individual potential… democratic participation, education and training and promotion arrangements are involved … … the time is ripe for a serious attempt to widen the area of common decision-taking and acceptance of responsibility—in place of managerial 'prerogatives'. 2027 An extension of worker participation backed by industrial training and the provision of relevant information by the managements will make an important contribution to industrial efficiency. No one will quarrel with that outlook and the Amendments would embrace it in the Bill. They would make a substantial contribution to increasing the participation of workers in industry. It is an aim which the Government have professed more than once.

§ Mr. Swingler
At this hour it is a pleasure to respond to my hon. Friend who was such an active and able member of the Standing Committee. He and I up to this point have spent a total of roughly 220 hours examining this Bill in Committee and on the Report stage; and we have a little time to go yet.
Since everybody in the House knows of his wide experience and knowledge of the road transport industry, we have naturally considered any Amendments which he has put down in the course of the Bill with very great care. Having considered these Amendments I have to tell my hon. Friend and the House that on re-examination of Clause 128 of this Bill we consider that it provides for the machinery for negotiation and consultation with the staff and that his Amendments are unnecessary.
I will go straight to the heart of Clause 128(2), which applies to the Railways Board, the Waterways Board, the Transport Holding Company, new authorities and the P.T.Es. It states that: it shall be the duty of the authority, either directly, or indirectly by exercising control over subsidiaries, to seek consultation with any organisation appearing to them to be appropriate with a view to the conclusion between the authority and that organisation … of such agreements … as appear to be desirable …" etc. I would make to my hon. Friend the point that we have put emphasis on "indirectly by exercising control over subsidiaries", namely that where an organisation like, for example, the Transport Holding Company and, as he correctly thinks, some of the authorities established under this Bill, is organised mainly through subsidiary organisations, clearly the duty is placed on the authority to exercise control over all their subsidiary organisations to seek consultation with the trade unions to establish appropriate machinery. And then there are set out the three aims and objects, 2028 first for machinery for settlement by negotiation of terms and conditions of employment. That is the main point. Secondly: the promotion and encouragement of measures affecting efficiency and the promotion and encouragement of the training of persons employed. Thirdly: the promotion and encouragement of measures affecting the safety, health and welfare of persons employed. All these main objects are set out in the Bill. First, we want to ensure that in the case of all these authorities machinery is established, either at national level or through control exercised by any holding company over its subsidiaries. That holding company has, of course, the authority to ensure that joint consultative machinery will be established. It will cover negotiation and bargaining on pay and conditions, and the promotion and encouragement of measures affecting efficiency, productivity, training, safety, health and welfare.
I believe that on re-examination and consideration my hon. Friend will find that all the points with which he is concerned are covered here in the Bill; and he has the assurance that those words in the Bill mean that in the case of all authorities organised in the form of subsidiary undertakings, those undertakings will be directed by the national authority to establish the joint consultative machinery which he and I wish to see established.

§ Mr. James Bennett
In the light of those assurances, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.