§ Mr. EmeryMr. Speaker, I wish to raise a point of order, of which I have given notice, concerning the problems which affect certain Committees sitting at the same time as the House.
The 17th edition of Erskine May clearly states that
when a Division is called in the House the chairman must suspend the proceedings ' for such time as will, in his opinion, enable members to vote in the division'.I ask for your Ruling and assistance on two matters. First, this morning, in the Standing Committee on the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill, a Division in the House arose after a Division in the Committee had been called. The Chairman immediately suspended the Committee for 10 minutes. When the Committee reassembled, 10 minutes later, the Chairman, due to the pressure of the large number of Members voting in the Division, had been unable to get back to the Committee. No one makes any criticism of the Chairman. However, it transpired that the Committee could not reassemble until 12 minutes had elapsed. May I, therefore, ask for a Ruling from you, Mr. Speaker, that a longer time than the present 10 minutes should be allowed, especially as the Chairman of the Committee has most helpfully said that he will consider the matter again.Secondly, may I—
§ Hon. Members: Oh.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. EmerySecondly, may I refer to the considerable difficulties that Members find in attempting to do their duty and follow out their obligations both to the Committee and to the House. It can, and is likely to, transpire that an hon. Member who has moved an Amendment in Committee will find that a specific 1539 Amendment affecting his constituents will arise when his duty calls for him to be on the Floor of the House. This will probably happen this afternoon, when certain aspects concerning Devon will arise on Amendments to the Transport Bill. If the Member rightly attends to his principal duty on the Floor of the House, a Division may be taken in Committee on an Amendment that he has moved without his knowing that a Division in Committee has been called.
Hon. Members are trying to co-operate with the Government as much as possible —[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—in seeing that the legislation which is now being pushed through the House is properly dealt with. Could you, Mr. Speaker, find a method of allowing Members, when they are doing their duty in the House of Commons, to know of Divisions which have specifically been moved on Amendments in Committee, perhaps only if they request it, so that it does not necessarily become a general practice.
May I ask, Mr. Speaker—
§ Hon. Members: No. Enough.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Noise does not help.
§ Mr. EmeryMay I ask, Mr. Speaker, for a Ruling from you as soon as possible, because the Services Committee, to which this matter might normally be referred, would not be able to deal with it before much of this legislation has gone through the House. As the Services Committee is an advisory body to you, Mr. Speaker, a Ruling from you would be helpful to hon. Members.
§ Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I have been addressed at length on a point of order and I propose to deal with it.
I am glad that in raising this point of order the hon. Member made no criticism of the Chairmen of the Committees upstairs. It would not be in order to appeal to Mr. Speaker against any decision or anything that happened in Committee. I have, and I know that the House has, full confidence in my Chairmen upstairs.
I understand that the other matter is one of difficulty for hon. Members of Parliament who are torn between their 1540 duty to a debate on the Floor of the House and similar duty upstairs. But the arrangement of the business of the House is in no way in the hands of Mr. Speaker —[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Order—so by no Ruling on my part could Mr. Speaker change the business of the House, and there it must remain.
§ Sir Harmar Nicholls (Peterborough)Following on my hon. Friend's point of order, may I say, Sir, that another incident happened this morning against which one feels that the House should try to offer some protection to its Members. This morning we had a Scottish Standing Committee meeting at precisely the same time as in this House the Scottish section of the Report stage of the Transport Bill was being discussed. I believe that the Standing Committee tried to adjourn so that some hon. Members could play their part on Report stage of the Transport Bill, but, under the guidance of the Government, they were not able to get their adjournment. This is putting hon. Members in an intolerable position.
I understand your difficulty, Mr. Speaker. You have to obey the rules of the House. But is there no way of the Chair bringing its influence to bear on the Leader of the House so that this intolerable situation, which is unforgivable in terms of Parliamentary democracy, can be dealt with?
§ Mr. SpeakerThe point of order that the hon. Member has raised was raised twice as a point of order in this morning's debate. This is not a matter for the Chair. This is a matter for the House. Mr. Speaker is the servant of the House.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. We have a lot of business ahead of us. We are under the Guillotine and there is also a matter of privilege ahead of us. I hope that we will not spend too much time, therefore, on points of order.
§ Mr. EmeryFurther to that point of order. I realise that you, Mr. Speaker, cannot control business, but part of my question to you on a matter of order was whether it would be possible for hon. Members who were doing their business on the Floor of the House— [Laughter.]—to be notified of Divisions 1541 upstairs in Committee. This is not a matter of rearrangement of business, but simply a matter of assisting hon. Members who are trying—[Laughter.]—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. An hon. Member's phraseology is his own affair.
§ Mr. SpeakerI dealt with that point also twice this morning. It would not be proper to ask the Chair to make extra arrangements so that hon. Members on the Floor of the House should know what is happening in a Committee upstairs. I suggested this morning that Members should keep in touch with their hon. Friends. I understand that there is one of the T.V. annunciators at the centre of the Upper Committee Corridor which can help Committee members a little, but I sincerely appreciate the difficulties under which hon. Members in the House are placed.