§ PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO OPERATION OF PUBLIC SERVICE VEHICLES
- (1) When any traffic commissioners are considering whether or not to exercise their power under Section 127(7) of the Act of 1960 to refuse a person a public service vehicle licence, or to suspend or revoke one or more of any such licences already granted to a person, on the ground of that person's unfitness to be the holder thereof, the commissioners—
- (a) shall have regard to any information they may have with respect to the matters specified in subsection (2) of this section; and
- (b) shall consider any representations with respect to any of those matters made by any of the following persons, namely—
- (i) any such trade union within the meaning of the Trade Union Act 1913 or other association as the Minister may by regulations prescribe, being a union or other association whose members consist of or include persons holding public service vehicle licences or employees of any such persons;
- (ii) a chief officer of police;
- (iii) in England or Wales, the council of a county, county borough, county district or London borough, the Greater London Council, or the Common Council of the City of London;
- (iv) in Scotland, a county or town council;
- and in the said section 127(7) for the words 'such a licence' there shall be substituted the words 'the licence in question'.
- (2) The matters referred to in subsection (l)(a) of this section are—
- (a) the previous conduct of the person in question in relation to any trade or business in the course of which vehicles of any description are operated, being a trade or business—
- (i) carried on by him or by a company of which he is or has been a director; or
- (ii) for the purposes of which he is or has been employed;
- (b) the arrangements for securing that Part VI of this Act or, so long as it remains in force, section 73 of the Act of 1960 is complied with in the case of the vehicle or vehicles in question;
- (c) he facilities and arrangements for maintaining the vehicle or vehicles in question in a fit and serviceable condition;
- (d) the manner in which the vehicle in question is proposed to be used or, as the case may be, in which the vehicle or vehicles in question have been used;
- (e) the financial resources of the person in question.
- (3) In section 152 of the Act of 1960 (which imposes on the holder of a road service licence certain obligations as respects wages and conditions of employment of persons employed by him in connection with the operation of a public service vehicle)—
- (a) for any reference to the holder of a road service licence there shall be substituted a reference to the holder of a public service vehicle licence;
- (b) in subsection (2), the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity shall be substituted for the traffic commissioners as the person to whom representations under that subsection are to be made; and
- (c) for subsection (4) there shall be substituted the following: —
- '(4) If it is decided by the Industrial Court that a person has been guilty of a breach of the provisions of this section, the traffic commissioners by whom any public service vehicle licence has been granted to that person may suspend or revoke that licence or refuse to grant a further such licence to that person; and a licence suspended under this subsection shall during the time of suspension be of no effect.'—[Mr. Swingler.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ 4.12 p.m.
§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Transport (Mr. Stephen Swingler)I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
Hon. Members who are acquainted with matters relating to public service vehicles will understand that, although it seems lengthy, the new Clause is, nevertheless, clear, straightforward and simple in regard to the application of conditions of licensing. The Clause, like so many other new Clauses and Amendments with which we are to deal, represents the response of the Government to points raised by back benchers in the Standing Committee. This one is in response to a point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Bridgeton (Mr. James Bennett) and some of his hon. Friends when we were discussing quality licensing, which relates to commercial vehicles, namely, that we 1249 should have a system of applying quality licensing to public service vehicles.
Under the existing law, namely, Section 127 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, a public service vehicle licence is already in a sense a quality licence since it can be refused, suspended or revoked by the traffic commissioners, if it appears to the commissioners, having examined the conduct of the operator in question, or the manner in which the vehicles are being used, that he is not a fit person to hold a licence. However, hon. Members will know very well that a public service vehicle licence also has another function in so far as it controls the fitness of individual vehicles.
This Clause is produced in response to the representations which I have mentioned. First of all, it would enable the traffic commissioners to receive representation on specified matters connected with the fitness of operators of public service vehicles just as in the quality licensing system. Secondly the trade unions, the local authorities and the police are also to have rights of representation to the commissioners, and, thirdly, the Clause extends to holders of public service vehicle licences the provisions of Section 152 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, namely, the so-called "fair wages clause", which at present applies only to holders of road service licences, and, incidentally, it substitutes the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity for the traffic commissioners as the person to whom complaints are appropriately to be made under the fair wages provision.
The purpose here is to strengthen the law by spelling out the "fit person" criterion in Section 127 of the 1960 Act in more detail, and by providing statu-torily for the traffic commissioners to entertain representations about an operator's fitness. If the commissioners, as a result of representations, or on their own initiative, propose to exercise the power to refuse, revoke or suspend a licence they will give notice of this in notices and proceedings and it will be at the commissioners' discretion to hold a public hearing before deciding whether to refuse, suspend or revoke a licence. The appeal rights of operators in respect of such judgments of the commissioners will, of course, remain.
May I, in addition, say a few words about Section 152 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960. This Section provides that 1250 the wages and conditions of employment of the workers employed by a road service licence holder must be no less favourable than those applicable under the "fair wages clause", that is the fair wages Resolution adopted by the House of Commons in relation to Government contracts. This also provides that an employer should recognise the freedom of his workers to be members of trade unions.
We have endeavoured, in this Clause, in response to representations made in Committee, to incorporate this aspect and to apply Section 152, which now applies to public service vehicles operated by someone who holds a road service licence, to operators who do only contract work. We think that it is reasonable, as represented by many of my hon. Friends, that we should extend this provision and enable failure to comply with Section 152 of the Road Traffic Act to be treated as a ground on which traffic commissioners may refuse, revoke or suspend an operator's public service vehicle licence.
§ Mr. Michael Heseltine (Tavistock)I was hoping that the Minister might have given us some indication of the representations which have been made to the industry as a result of points raised in Committee and of what it has had to say about the new Clause. Obviously, as the House will be aware, the industry, though consulted, has had remarkably little time to formulate any opinion, but, I understand, the opinions which it has formulated are almost universally against this particular proposal.
It would have been reasonable to have expected the Minister of State to cover this point, especially as the Clause has come so late in the proceedings of the Bill. I would like to have heard not only the views of the industries concerned, but the views of the traffic commissioners, since it is the powers of the commissioners which are being changed by this proposal, and they have been administering the previous proposals for over 30 years. It would, therefore, have been likely to have come from them if they had found deficiencies in the legislation which needed amendment of the sort we are discussing today.
I am not aware that there has been any such submission from the traffic commissioners. My strong suspicion is that if 1251 the industry or the traffic commissioners, the two bodies who have the greatest knowledge of these problems, had wanted this legisation in the first place, then it would have found its way into the Bill. The fact that it did not find its way into the draft until so late in the proceedings confirms my suspicion that legislation in this form is not required by the people who have to operate it.
The Minister was fair in pointing out the differences between goods vehicles, to which quality licensing is to apply, and bus vehicles, to which it was not originally intended that it should apply. As the Passenger Vehicle Operators' Asociation made quite clear to the Ministry in its letter of 15th May, there is a different system applying to lorries, on the one hand, and to buses, on the other. For lorries there are blanket licences, but for buses there is licensing of individual vehicles, and much more is in the hands of the traffic commissioners, and has been for a very long period of time. I am not aware of any serious body of complaint about the way in which this legislation has worked over 38 years.
My gravest anxieties come when I move to that part of the Clause which deals with what the Minister referred to as a fit person. In trying to define a fit person, as opposed to leaving it to be interpreted, as it has been over many years, by the traffic commissioners, one runs into difficulties which we on this side of the House would anticipate and would not wish to see spelt out in legislation. If I may draw the attention of the House to the matters which are now to be taken into consideration by the traffic commissioners in applying the new form of quality licensing, my anxieties will be clearly understood.
First, the traffic commissioners will take into account the previous conduct of the person in question in relation to any trade or business in the course of which vehicles of any description are operated. The previous conduct does not mean the previous conduct of the operator running buses, or the way in which he has conducted himself as a businessman in this sort of industry. The Clause enables his previous conduct to be brought into consideration, with no attempt to define pre- 1252 cisely what is meant by that. It could be that a divorced man would be considered unsuitable because his previous standards do not match up to the standards of the traffic commisioner.
The Clause does not only apply to the industry in which the man is now applying for a licence, but a traffic commissioner can take into account the man's performance in any trade, regardless of the relevance of that trade to the industry in which he is now applying for a licence.
The only qualification in the Clause is that it should be a trade in the course of which vehicles of any descriptions are operated. I have spent a long time trying to think of some trades in which vehicles of some description or other are not operated. There is absolutely no operation in commercial life today in which does not involve vehicles of some description. This qualification is no safeguard whatsoever to the applicant.
Subsection (2,e) deals with the financial resources of the person in question. This is an unnecessarily vague restriction. What exactly is in the Ministry's mind in talking about the financial resources of a fit person? For example, if a man has bought his bus on hire purchase, will it be said that his financial resources are not sufficiently strong to enable him to conduct a business? Will it be taken into account thay at some past date he might have been a bankrupt?
The House will be as familiar as I am with the list of highly successful men who, having at an early stage in their life gone bankrupt, have later paid off their debts and made a very substantial commercial contribution. If a man has borrowed money, or borrowed from his family, would that mean he would not be considered a fit person for financial reasons? Difficulties of this sort arise the moment one tries to pin down in legislation that the person shall have financial resources in order to conduct this business. It means that the traffic commissioners have to apply themselves to this consideration more than they would previously have done. It gives an emphasis to the sort of consideration which should have been capable of being taken into account in the previous legislation.
It is perfectly reasonable to have a global view about a fit person, but the 1253 moment one starts trying to probe into people's financial resources then the inquisitorial powers of the State are being extended quite unpardonably to private individuals.
Under the decision to extend to contract vehicle owners the fair wages provisions that exist elsewhere, the appeals are to be removed from the traffic commissioners to the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity. The right hon. Lady who is associated with giving birth to the Bill has now been gone for two months, and I was surprised to find her being embalmed in the legislation we are now considering. I am for various reasons against the suggestion that the right hon. Lady should once again burden herself with these investigations.
Licensing authorities have done this work for a very considerable period of time and have an experience of local affairs which enables them to conduct this investigation. The moment it is sought to centralise these decisions into the hands of one central Ministry, an element of delay and bureaucracy is injected which is expensive and inefficient. The possibility of quick decisions being taken is prevented, and it is quite unwarranted that the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity should wish to extend her powers in this way.
I am also worried that a reference to this new Government Department should appear in the Clause. Considering the rate at which Government Departments have come and gone under the present Government, I am concerned that a new Department, in existence for only two months, should find itself embodied permanently in legislation. What will happen if it should be decided that we do not need a Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity? We would find that there is nobody to whom the appeals are to be made. If the appeals are to be made to whoever takes over from that person, we are not capable of making a decision on what will be the effect of another Government Department inheriting the right to do what has been done perfectly satisfactorily for years by traffic commissioners.
We have the gravest anxieties. We do not believe that it was necessary to inject quality licensing into the operation of buses. If it had been, it would have been 1254 put into the original legislation. The industry has not had time to consider this and, in the cursory investigation that they have been able to carry out to my knowledge, they have come out totally opposed to the legislation we are discussing.
One sees the desire of the State once again to pry into the fitness of a person as a result of his previous conduct, and whether or not he is financially strong. The Government take upon themselves the decision-making as to whether or not somebody who has committed a financial gaffe in the past should be banned from holding a licence in the trade in which he wishes to embark. This restricts the working of the economy in a totally unnecessary way. I am sure that my hon. Friends will join me in expressing anxieties about this hastily drafted and ill-conceived Clause.
§ 4.30 p.m.
§ Mr. James Bennett (Glasgow, Bridgeton)I begin by thanking my hon. Friend the Minister of State for putting down this Clause. Obviously, I derive some satisfaction from it in that I suggested a similar Clause in Standing Committee. Indeed, I am surprised that the hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Michael Heseltine) objects so strongly to the Clause, because my suggestion was on the Committee's Notice Paper for some time and, if his comments were true, I imagine that I would have received evidence to indicate that it is unnecessary. In the event, I received nothing.
The Clause sets out simply to provide strict regulations under which a licence will be granted to a public service vehicle operator. When one considers the regulations covering road haulage, are we now to say that we want less strict legislation for the carrying of people than we have for the carrying of freight? I cannot believe that hon. Gentlemen opposite, who are prepared to introduce tighter legislation for the carrying of freight, disregard the necessity of similar legislation for the carrying of passengers.
Listening to the arguments advanced by the hon. Member for Tavistock, I get the impression that he himself does not feel too strongly about it, but is making his observations for the strict purpose of making them. The Minister made the case for the Clause at the outset. If I 1255 were to go on any longer, it would merely be to labour the point. It is sound, just, and should be supported by all hon. Members.
§ Mr. SwinglerAs I anticipated, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Bridgeton (Mr. James Bennett) welcomes the Clause. In principle, we agreed with him that it would be curious, not to say irrational, in view of our concern for road safety, not to apply quality licensing to passenger vehicles.
The hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Michael Heseltine) raised a number of points which were a repetition of the criticisms of the criteria laid down for the quality licensing of goods vehicles. For example, he referred to the necessity for the traffic commissioners to consider the financial resources and past record of an applicant. These criteria are laid down in relation to the business of a person as an operator of vehicles. We are concerned with those here. In all the elaboration of the criteria, there are the matters which we know that the traffic commissioners have in mind in carrying out any investigations which may be required.
The hon. Gentleman asked me about consultations. In Committee, I undertook to have consultations and, naturally, we have had consultations on the new Clause on a wide scale. Incidentally, if I were to be asked to elaborate on all the consultations held on all the points raised in Standing Committee, I might occupy too much of the time of the House. However, as anticipated, the associations concerned were critical about this point in that they regarded the provisions as unnecessary. However, it would not be true to interpret that as meaning that they were opposed to them. On past experience of the passenger service vehicle licensing system, they thought that it was not necessary to make these provisions or to extend the application of the "fair wages clause".
The traffic commissioners welcomed the clarification in the Clause in that it sets out details of how the fitness of a person as a public service vehicle operator is to be judged and gives an indication of the lines on which the traffic commissioners proceed. Our 1256 general experience is that the commissioners exercise their discretion wisely when considering these matters.
As for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity, Section 152 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, the "fair wages clause", has relevance to her. In providing that the trade unions may make a complaint to the traffic commissioners about violations of the "fair wages clause", it says:
… if the matter in dispute is not otherwise disposed of, it shall be referred by the Minister of Labour to the Industrial Court for settlement.In other words, the Minister of Labour is already referred to in that Section of the 1960 Act.If the traffic commissioners were not able to dispose of the matter, it was their statutory obligation to refer it to the Minister of Labour, and he, in turn, had the statutory obligation to refer it to the Industrial Court for settlement, if there was an allegation of violation of the "fair wages clause" which could not be disposed of otherwise. In the present case, the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity has stepped into the shoes of the Minister of Labour and, therefore, we have to provide for her in the Clause.
As for the whole question of the application of the "fair wages clause", we consider that, as the Road Traffic Act, 1960 recognises, it is appropriately a matter for the Minister concerned with labour. The matter arises because the trade unions can make complaints about public service vehicle operators, and it would seem to facilitate the whole process that complaints should be laid directly with the responsible Minister, who should refer them to the Industrial Court, which is the proper body to decide any dispute about the operation of the "fair wages clause".
I hope that that explains the nature of our application of Section 152 of the 1960 Act to this provision. It is merely a short circuiting of the processes of appeal that we have used for the settlement of any matters in dispute by the Industrial Court.
§ Mr. Edward M. Taylor (Glasgow, Cathcart)Can the Minister explain the remarkable omission of any reference to the district councils in Scotland, 1257 when we have representations allowed from the county districts in England? In Scotland, a district council can cover a wide area and a very large number of people. It seems strange that they should be omitted from those who may make representations of this sort. I hope that the Minister will deal with that point before he concludes his remarks.
§ Mr. SwinglerI thought that this was a point which we had dealt with previously in Committee, but I will go into it further.
I give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that we want to provide the same rights for local authorities everywhere. If there has been an omission, it will be repaired, but we have tried to follow the allocation of rights and responsibilities as provided for in other sections of the licensing system, where the local authorities may make representations. I will check on whether we have defined the correct local authorities for Scotland. If we have not, and if the hon. Gentleman is correct in what he says, we will see that the provision is amended.
§ Mr. Peter Walker (Worcester)I do not wish to delay the House, as we have 23 new Clauses to get through in about two and a half hours, but I do not think that the Minister has argued adequately against the fundamental point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Tavistock (Mr. Michael Heseltine) that there were no representations for a provision of this sort to be included in the Bill during all the time that the Government were publishing White Papers. They must have had very close consultations with the traffic commissioners who,
| Division No. 169.] | AYES | [4.40 p.m. |
| Abse, Leo | Blenkinsop, Arthur | Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Chapman, Donald |
| Alldritt, Walter | Booth, Albert | Coe, Denis |
| Allen, Scholefield | Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Coleman, Donald |
| Anderson, Donald | Boyden, James | Concannon, J. D. |
| Archer, Peter | Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Conlan, Bernard |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Bradley, Tom | Corbet, Mrs. Freda |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Brooks, Edwin | Crawshaw, Richard |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Cronin, John |
| Barnes, Michael | Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) | Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony |
| Barnett, Joel | Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Baxter, William | Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W) | Cullen, Mrs. Alice |
| Bence, Cyril | Brown, R. W. ((Shoreditch & F'bury) | Dalyell, Tam |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Buchan, Norman | Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) |
| Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) | Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Davies, Harold (Leek) |
| Blackburn, F. | Carmichael, Neil | Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) |
§ as far as I know, never at any stage suggested that it was needed—
§ Mr. Leslie Huckfield (Nuneaton)I do not know whether the hon. Member has studied the annual reports of the traffic commissioners for 1966 and 1967. In the case of the Northern Traffic Authority, referring to this very point, the commissioners say in paragraph 25, that
… the situation still obtains and the problem is becoming increasingly more acute, and a continuation of this state of affairs could have serious effects.
§ Mr. WalkerWith respect, to quote one phrase out of context—
§ Mr. Huckfield rose—
§ Mr. WalkerI do not accuse the hon. Gentleman of doing it deliberately, but in none of the reports from the various divisions has there been any urging that action should be taken along these lines. The industry has made it clear to the Minister in an open letter that it does not consider that these provisions are needed.
We are aware that the system of licensing of passenger vehicles is different from that applied to commercial vehicles, and I think that both sides of the House agree that we need quality licensing for commercial vehicles. However, many of the matters brought out by my hon. Friend point to a Measure such as this being hastily drafted at the end of the Bill's Committee stage. They are matters which require further consideration before such a system is adopted. On those grounds, I would urge my hon. Friends to divide the House on the Clause.
§ Question put, That the Clause be read a Second time: —
§ The House divided: Ayes 282, Noes 232.
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Pavitt, Laurence |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-HuIl W.) | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Delargy, Hugh | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Dell, Edmund | Jones, Rt. Hn. SirElwyn (W.Ham,S.) | Pentland, Norman |
| Dempsey, James | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Perry, Ernest C. (Battersea, S.) |
| Dewar, Donald | Judd, Frank | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Kelley, Richard | Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E. |
| Dickens, James | Kenyon, Clifford | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) |
| Dobson, Ray | Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) | Probert, Arthur |
| Doig, Peter | Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Randall, Harry |
| Driberg, Tom | Lawson, George | Rankin, John |
| Dunn, James A. | Leadbitter, Ted | Rees, Merlyn |
| Dunnett, Jack | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | Reynolds, G. W. |
| Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | Lestor, Miss Joan | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Lever, Harold (Cheetham) | Richard, Ivor |
| Eadie, Alex | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Lipton, Marcus | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) |
| Ellis, John | Lomas, Kenneth | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| English, Michael | Loughlin, Charles | Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St.P'c'as) |
| Ennals, David | Luard, Evan | Robinson, W. O. J. (Waith'stow, E.) |
| Ensor, David | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Rodgers, William (Stockton) |
| Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Roebuck, Roy |
| Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) | McBride, Neil | Rose, Paul |
| Fernyhough, E. | McCann, John | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | MacColl, James | Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.) |
| Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | MacDermot, Niall | Ryan, John |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Macdonald, A. H. | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.) |
| Foley, Maurice | McGuire, Michael | Sheldon, Robert |
| Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Mckay, Mrs. Margaret | Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E. |
| Ford, Ben | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Forrester, John | Mackintosh, John P. | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Fowler, Gerry | Maclennan, Robert | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Fraser, John (Norwood) | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Slater, Joseph |
| Freeson, Reginald | MacPherson, Malcolm | Small, William |
| Galpern, Sir Myer | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Gardner, Tony | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael |
| Garrett, W. E. | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Stonehouse, John |
| Ginsburg, David | ||
| Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfieid, E.) | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. |
| Gregory, Arnold | Manuel, Archie | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Grey, Charles (Durham) | Mapp, Charles | Swain, Thomas |
| Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Marks, Kenneth | Swingler, Stephen |
| Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly) | Marquand, David | Symonds, J. B. |
| Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard | Taverne, Dick |
| Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.) |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Mayhew, Christopher | Thomson, Rt. Hn. George |
| Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert | Thornton, Ernest |
| Hamling, William | Menderson, J. J. | Tinn, James |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mikardo, Ian | Tomney, Frank |
| Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | Miller Dr. M. S. | Urwin, T. W. |
| Haseldine, Norman | Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Varley, Eric G. |
| Hattersley, Roy | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Hazell, Bert | Molloy, Willia | Walden, Brian (All Saints) |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Moonman, Eric | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Henig, Stanley | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Wallace, George |
| Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Hooley, Frank | Morris, Charles R. (Opensharn) | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) |
| Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Morris, John (Aberavon) | Weitzman, David |
| Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) | Moyle, Roland | Wellbeloved, James |
| Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Murray, Albert | Whitaker, Ben |
| Howie, W. | Neal, Harold | White, Mrs. Eirene |
| Whitlock, William | ||
| Hoy, James | Newerns, Stan | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Huckfield, Leslie | Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip(Derby,S.) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) |
| Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Oakes, Gordon | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Ogden, Eric | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | O'Malley, Brian | Wills, Rt. Hn. George |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Oram, Albert E. | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Hunter, Adam | Orme, Stanley | Winnick, David |
| Hynd, John | Oswald, Thomas | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) | Owen, Will (Morpeth) | Woof, Robert |
| Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) | Wyatt, Woodrow |
| Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) | Paget, R. T. | Yates, Victor |
| Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Palmer, Arthur | |
| Jeger, George (Goole) | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Jeger,Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.) | Park, Trevor | Mr. Harry Gourlay and |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Parker, John (Dagenham) | Mr. Joseph Harper. |
| Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| NOES | ||
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Awdry, Daniel | Batsford, Brian |
| Astor, John | Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton |
| Bell, Ronald | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Onslow, Cranley |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) | Gurden, Harold | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian |
| Bessell, Peter | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Page, Graham (Crosby) |
| Biffen, John | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) | Pardoe, John |
| Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel | Harrison, Brian (Maldon) | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Peel, John |
| Blaker, Peter | Harvie Anderson, Miss | Peyton, John |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Hawkins, Paul | Pike, Miss Mevyn |
| Body, Richard | Hay, John | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel | Pounder, Rafton |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward | Heseltine, Michael | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Braine, Bernard | Higgins, Terence L. | Prior, J. M. L. |
| Brewis, John | Hiley, Joseph | Pym, Fancis |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Hill, J. E. B. | Quennell, Miss J. M. |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. SirWalter | Hirst, Geoffrey | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin | Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Holland, Philip | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Bryan, Paul | Hordern, Peter | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N&M) | Hornby, Richard | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Howell, David (Guildford) | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Burden, F. A. | Hunt, John | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Campbell, Gordon | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey |
| Carlisle, Mark | Iremonger, T. L. | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Cary, Sir Robert | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Royle, Anthony |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Jennings, J. C. (Burton) | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Clark, Henry | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Scott, Nicholas |
| Clegg, Walter | Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Cooke, Robert | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Sharples, Richard |
| Corfield, F. V. | Kerby, Capt. Henry | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Costain, A. P. | Kershaw, Anthony | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) | Kimball, Marcus | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Sir Oliver | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Smith, John (London & W'minster) |
| Crouch, David | Kirk, Peter | Speed, Keith |
| Crowder, F. P. | Kitson, Timothy | Stainton, Keith |
| Cunningham, Sir Knox | Lambton, Viscount | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Currie, G. B. H. | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Stodart, Anthony |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lane, David | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon) |
| Dance, Jamas | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Tapsell, Peter |
| Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire,W.) | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield) | Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart) |
| Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) | Temple, John M. |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Digby, Simon Wingfield | Longden, Gilbert | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Lubbock, Eric | Tilney, John |
| Doughty, Charles | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | MacArthur, Ian | Van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Drayson, G. B. | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Eden, Sir John | McMaster, Stanley | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Macmillian, Maurice (Farnham) | Walker, Peter (Worcester) |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Maddan, Martin | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Emery, Peter | Maginnis, John E. | Wall, Patrick |
| Eyre, Reginald | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | Walters, Dennis |
| Farr, John | Webster, David | |
| Fisher, Nigel | Marten, Neil | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Maude, Angus | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Forteseue, Tim | Mawby, Ray | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Foster, Sir John | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh(St'fford & Stone) | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Miscampbell, Norman | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Glimour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Monro, Hector | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Glyn, Sir Richard | Montgomery, Fergus | Worsley, Marcus |
| Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Wright, Esmond |
| Goodhart, Philip | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Wylie N. R. |
| Goodhew, Victor | Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Younger, Hn. George |
| Cower, Raymond | Murton, Oscar | |
| Grant, Anthony | Neave, Airey | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Gresham Cooke, R. | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Mr. Jasper More and |
| Grieve, Percy | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Mr. Bernard Weatherill. |
§ Clause added to the Bill.