HC Deb 27 May 1968 vol 765 cc1347-69
Mr. Edward M. Taylor

I beg to move Amendment No. 548, in page 6, line 43, at end insert 'but the Railways Board shall not be empowered to issue to the Freight Corporation securities in the said freightliner company until the expiry of five years commencing with the appointed day'

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this Amendment, we are discussing Amendment No. 549, in page 7, line 8, leave out from beginning to 'and in line 9'. and No. 550, in line 10, at end insert 'and five years after the appointed day there shall be similarly transferred to and vested in the Freight Corporation the aforesaid fifty-one per cent. of the securities of the freightliner company'.

Mr. Taylor

We have only 40 minutes left in which to consider a large number of important Amendments and, in those circumstances, I will put my case as briefly as I can.

By this Amendment we are endeavouring to prevent the transfer from British Railways to the National Freight Corporation of 51 per cent. of the assets of the freightliner company.

Everyone who has the interests of British Railways at heart and everyone who believes, as we do on this side of the House, that the railways have a dynamic and vigorous future, given the sort of encouragement and policies which appear to be lacking at present, accepts that it is in the interests of British Railways and those who work for British Railways that the freightliner service, which was established, promoted and exploited by British Railways should remain within the ownership and control of British Railways.

Despite the difficulties that arise from time to time in British Railways, they are fortunate in having probably the most loyal and devoted group of workers in the country. It is my experience that railwaymen talk about railways, and little else, because they have the future of the industry at heart. In those circumstances, we have to take into account the high morale and spirit which exists—

Mr. Leslie Huckfield

If the hon. Gentleman is paying tribute to the faithfulness of railway workers, does he really think that the best way to reward them is to tell them that there are 100,000 too many of them?

Mr. Taylor

The hon. Gentleman should be aware that the best way to promote high morale is to have profitability, for every man in the industry to know that his time is not wasted and that he is usefully and fully employed. Luddites like the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huckfield) who try to obstruct progress in British Railways and stand in the way of workers should be ashamed of themselves, because the results are all too obvious.

It is also important from the point of view of British Railways management. A former Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport spoke frequently about the importance of attracting good management to British Railways, and all those who are interested in the railways know that it is a problem to make sure that the best managers are attracted to the industry.

In those circumstances, it is a savage blow to morale for the Government to bring forward a Measure which proposes to take away a major part of the ownership of the freightliner service which has been built up and exploited. This is not simply my selfish view. I doubt whether the Government could advance the view that the National Union of Railwaymen, or others employed in the industry, are happy with this move. The statements that I have read and heard and the views of railway workers in my constituency are quite clear. They want this asset, which has been built up and exploited by British Railways, to remain within the ownership of British Railways.

We also have the views of the former Chairman of British Railways, Sir Stanley Raymond. There was a clear and specific statement by Sir Stanley Raymond, the former Chairman of British Railways, in the Sunday Times not long ago, in which he said: It seems to me the height of noncommercial organisational theory to separate the sales and production sides of a business and to put them under separate bosses.

Mr. Thomas Swain (Derbyshire, North-East)

Was that statement made before or after Sir Stanley Raymond was sacked?

Mr. Taylor

Even coming from the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Swain) that is a quite scandalous allegation to make. Those of us who know Sir Stanley Raymond know how he battled for the railways. To suggest that he would say one thing before he was sacked and another after is a shameful allegation which should be withdrawn. For the hon. Gentleman, who is always anxious to stand up for those in the mining industry, to make this statement about someone known to my right hon. and hon. Friends and myself as an honourable man, who would not say one thing at one time and another at a different time, is a shameful allegation and should be withdrawn. However, we have little time on this and other Amendments, so I must quickly come to a conclusion.

I believe that a major blunder has been made in this instance, and I hope that the Government will reconsider the matter. In dealing with this Amendment I ask the Government to explain as simply and clearly as possible the financial basis of the transfer. We suggest that this transfer should not take place; the Government suggest that it should. Will they please indicate, therefore, on what basis they will assess the value of the 51 per cent. and what difference this will make to the capital structure of the National Freight Corporation, because this is a very valuable asset which has been built up and exploited in a brilliant way.

The Minister will be aware that in Glasgow, where this service has been successful, it has had enormous difficulty in coping with the traffic which is available for the railways. This should be borne in mind. It is difficult—

Mr. Manuel

rose—

Mr. Taylor

I have given way several times. We have little time left as a result of interventions of hon. Members opposite. I must get on—[Interruption]—In my last speech I was interrupted no less than 10 times by time-wasting interventions.

Bearing in mind the views of the railwaymen, the importance of preserving morale in this industry and of attracting the best management, I hope that the Government will reconsider the position and at least accept our Amendment for a five-year breaking clause to give the management of British Railways the opportunity to exploit fully this new technique of freightliner trains which they have brought in so successfully and which has such enormous potential.

Mr. Bessell

I am anxious that the Amendment shall be considered very carefully by the Minister. I hope that he will not merely read a Ministerial brief, because this is too important an issue.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Bromley-Davenport (Knutsford)

The right hon. Gentleman cannot read anything else.

Mr. Bessell

The hon. and gallant Member for Knutsford (Sir W. Bromley-Davenport) says that the Minister cannot read anything else, but I think he can read his own White Papers.

I have always been concerned about this transfer of a very important part of the assets of British Railways to the new Freight Corporation. The reason for my concern is that the one bright jewel in (he crown of British Railways at the moment is the freightliner service. Indeed, there is a long and important article in The Times today—I am sure the right hon. Gentleman has read it— which points out that the freightliner service is not only a success, but in fact the capacity of the freightliner service on certain of its runs—for example, Glasgow to London—is now overstretched. We know that part of the money which has been allocated to British Railways for the development of the freightliner service is now being used for the improvement of the existing depots at the existing rail heads.

9.0 p.m.

That is the degree of success which British Railways have had with this new service, and it seems wrong—and I go no further than that and use the kind of language which may be regarded as extravagant—that at a time when, under the terms of the Bill they are being placed in a position where they are forced to make ends meet, to break even, and where, if they do not do so they will have to come cap in hand to the Government and justify every expenditure that they make, and justify every grant which may be made to them for the operating of any kind of service, the one potentially profitable aspect should be removed and given, in part at least, to the new Freight Corporation.

I know that British Railways will have the benefits of operating the freightliner service. I realise that they will still have 49 per cent. of the profits which result from that service, but I believe that they would be given a head start if only the Minister would reconsider the question of transferring the controlling interest of something which is essentially a railway service, which should be run and controlled by railwaymen, and to whom the profits should accrue.

We are all concerned about British Railways We realise the difficulties under which they have operated. We recognise the problems which they present for a Government of any party. We are particularly anxious that when there is a chance of British Railways making a real success of a venture, as they have done with the freightliner service, they should not be robbed of that asset. I cannot see any logic in the argument for the new Corporation taking from British Railways something which is not only a success, but which has a vast potential, and which I believe will prove to be the greatest asset in the whole of the railway industry.

I beg the right hon. Gentleman, coming as he does fresh to the Bill, to take the Amendment seriously. It is one which I cordially support because I believe that it is in the interests of the industry, of those working in the industry, of the users of British Railways' services, and of the nation's economy as a whole, that this asset should remain totally under the control and operation of British Railways.

Mr. Leslie Huckfield

I am always rather suspicious when some hon. Gentlemen opposite pose as defenders of the British Railways Board. I say that especially because in 1962 they introduced the Transport Bill which gave a former Member of this House, who is now in the other place, the power to chop the railway system in half if he wanted to. It was the party opposite which, by the Transport Act of 1953, showed what it thought of the transport system, and as an example of their latest testimony of faith in British Railways hon. Gentlemen opposite are saying that we have too many railway lines. Above all, the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) keeps saying we have 100,000 railway men too many. That hardly seems the kind of language which ought to be coming from a party which claims to be in favour of our railway system.

We are taking the freightliner services away from British Railways because we feel that this is integration where integration is genuinely necessary. I have never been in favour of the 1947 solution of the British Transport Commission. I know that some of my hon. Friends do not hold that view, but on the freight side we have chosen to integrate in a direction in which integration is essential and, above all, is possible.

In addition, by setting up a freight-liner company, we will bring about a great deal of necessary rationalisation. There was a great possibility of duplication with a concept like this, particularly on the roads, where vehicles were operated by both the British Railways Board and the old Transport Holding Company; and it was feared that this kind of integration would still have resulted in duplication, with some road vehicles operated by the N.F.C. and some by the British Railways Board. I therefore see this as rationalisation, particularly in a saving of road vehicle capacity.

But if hon. Gentlemen opposite say that they have been in favour of getting this kind of traffic back on to the railways, why did they not look for this solution in their 1953 Transport Act? Everything in that Act or in the 1962 Act was directly aimed at getting as much traffic as possible back on to road haulage. That was their chance, and they threw it away and made sure that the British Railways Board was hampered by as many obligations, social and otherwise, as they could possibly lumber it with—for example, the common carrier obligation. That is the party opposite, which believes in British Railways.

But if the freightliner company, which is of vital concern, is very successful— the Glasgow run is so successful that the Glasgow terminal can no longer handle the demand—it is because British Road Services are already co-operating as if they were a part of the company.

The hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Bessell) did not see the need to take away the freightliner company from the British Railways Board, but has he spoken to any freightliner terminal managers? I do not claim to have talked to such managers all over the country, but those to whom I have spoken say that the freightliner company will be far more successful with its own marketing organisation. They are concerned that the freightliner is still being sold by the Railways Board. I do not run down the Board's commercial salesmen, but because the freightliner is a new concept, it needs a new image and most of these managers said that to be most successful it needed to be a separate entity with its own marketing organisation—

Mr. Bessell

The hon. Gentleman rightly says that the Glasgow-London run is over-stretched by the demand, but, if the freightliner service is carrying more than its present capacity, why does it need a separate sales organisation? Surely that is a tribute to the present one?

Mr. Huckfield

I thought that I had explained that. I agree that the freightliner is doing very well, but I think that it can do even better with a separate image and marketing organisation. Hon. Gentlemen have referred to the freightliner as a predominantly rail-borne concept. That is not so. The figures for present operating and the forecasts for the future show that 60 per cent. of its traffic will come from road haulage, from British Road Services and private hauliers. Far from being a rail-dominated concept, this is very much an integrated one.

The hon. Member will find that the haul from terminal to terminal is often about as long as the road haul to the terminal. This shows that, in practice, the road haul, added together at either end, is in many cases as long as—and, in one or two cases, longer than—the terminal-to-terminal rail haul.

Mr. Geoffrey Wilson

I could not agree less with everything said by the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huckfield), who is completely wrong in his facts. The freightliner service was a railway concept many years ago. It was developed by Dr. Beeching following the Beeching Report, and, had the Beeching proposals been carried out, the freightliner service would long ago have been open to both British Road Services and private enterprise hauliers, and it would have been a tremendous success.

Mr. Ron Lewis (Carlisle)

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the freightliner service was the brain child of Sir Brian Robertson and not Dr. Beeching?

Mr. Wilson

I said that it was a railway concept which had been developed by Beeching. He gave it the publicity it required in his Report and developed the idea. One could talk about the history of the railways and the sort of services that were in operation before the war, but I will not detain the House.

It is a pity that this concept was not developed as a railway undertaking because one of the great troubles of the railways is their chequered political history since the war has been a lack of confidence on the part of the railway personnel. That is still the chief trouble. Too many railway workers and potential railway staff do not believe that the railways have a future. One comes across that constantly when talking to people who are leaving the railways or will not join them because of fears about the future. This service was doing well and would have done very well indeed as a railway service. It could have done much to restore the prestige of the railways, and that is why it should be a railway service.

Mr. Ronald Atkins (Preston, North)

The one quality I admire above all in hon. Gentlemen opposite, and particularly the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor), is their cast-iron nerve—their ability to follow one inconsistency with another without a blush. I sometimes wish that I possessed that quality.

Mr. Peter Walker

Get on with the speech.

Mr. Atkins

They keep talking about deficits on the railways, yet do everything in their power to prevent us from reducing those deficits so that eventually we can wipe them out. Perhaps the biggest inconsistency of all is their present defence of the British Railways Board. For years they have denigrated this body in every possible way. To hear them defending it now turns my stomach.

We should be congratulating the Board for introducing the freightliner service. Dr. Beeching did not introduce it. Indeed, the first freightliner was the "Condor" from Glasgow. British Railways coupled it with the successful container concept from the United States and, as a result, we were the first European countries to operate such a service. We now lead the world in this system and the Board deserves our respect.

We should not forget that the Board was dealing with an operation. The railways saw that this was a successful operation and they perfected the operation. If there is a weakness in the British Railways administration, it is in sales promotion. It has been a weakness for many years because formerly, when the railways—under private enterprise—had a monopoly of most transport, they lost a lot of traffic to the roads.

9.15 p.m.

The Government are now heeding the complaints which have been made against British Railways' sales promotion. The Government have decided to give this idea a new start. Of course, the Railways Board has shown success in operation of the freightliners, but so far the system has barely been tapped. There is a tremendous field for development.

Mr. Edward M. Taylor

rose—

Mr. Atkins

It is remarkable that the hon. Member for Cathcart still has something to say.

Mr. Taylor

Is the hon. Member suggesting that British Railways do not have the ability to exploit this field of operation?

Mr. Atkins

I say that it is right that this new effort should be operated by experts. I am not suggesting that the Government will not put into this organisation men who have already shown their worth in the development of the freightliner service, but they want a high pressure organisation to bring up the traffic from £2½ million worth to the £15 million worth of which it is capable.

This is a splendid idea which the Government will develop. The Government are now doing something which has been suggested for years—devolution of authority on the railways. Devolution of function is better than devolution of administration into regions, because this is a very specialised business. I hope that the Opposition, with their hatred of British Railways, will not prevent them having a really good start with the ideas they have developed.

Another thing which turned my stomach was when hon. Members opposite quoted what railwaymen have said. Of course, railwaymen hate to see anything being lost to them. Naturally they will have reservations for sentimental reasons, but I have never known the Opposition to be sentimental about railwaymen, or any workers, until now when it suits their purpose to whip the Government. If they were concerned with what British railwaymen say, they would support this proposal because British railwaymen wholeheartedly support it.

Mr. John Hynd

I would not wish the impression to go out that all hon. Members on this side of the House are enthusiastic about this Clause. I shall not go into the argument made over and over again about the financial position of the railways and the effect which this proposal could have on it one way or the other. That argument is clear.

Much has been said about railwaymen, but in my experience—I know this is true of the major railwaymen's union—railwaymen are not in favour of dividing the freightliner service from the railway service. That is for some of the reasons which have beeen given in this debate. The freightliner service has been developed by the railways. In this discussion we have had evidence that it is so much a success that it has overtaken the ability of Glasgow, for instance, to provide adequate facilities to deal with the inrush of traffic.

This does not mean that we should stop at the capacity we have now. Obviously this will go on, but this peak of achievement has been reached under railway administration. When I hear my hon. Friends saying that the railway administration is not capable of selling the freightliners, I ask them to reconcile that with the record of the railways in achieving this success.

Mr. Ronald Atkins

I did not say that.

Mr. Hynd

This is simply what I understood. As for the selling of this, I cannot see why, after this experience, after proving that they can sell this service, the railways should now be told that they are out of date in sales techniques and that they must have a modern, streamlined service. If a streamlining of the existing sales service is necessary, I cannot see why it cannot be done equally well by the railways as by a separate body. If the transport service is to be streamlined, it must be done by people with transport experience. The only people with experience of freightliner development are railwaymen.

Therefore, I want it to go on record that many of us feel uneasy about this. I very much hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to put up a very convincing case. I shall take a lot of convincing.

Mr. Marsh

I hope that those, if they exist, who are taking notes of who speaks for how long on each side of the House in this debate will include my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. John Hynd) on the other side and not on ours. He raised what is the key point in this debate. He said that he did not believe that 51 per cent. of the freightliner companies should go into the National Freight Corporation. That is a point of view with which I personally disagree. The hon. Members for Truro (Mr. Geoffrey Wilson) and Bodmin (Mr. Bessell) take that view, too. All in all, that is a fairly attractive combination. It grieves me that I am unable to please them.

On the other hand, that is not the Amendment. The Government have decided as a matter of policy, which we can argue about at some other time— we shall have a fair amount of time in which to do it; it is a policy with which one may agree or disagree—that the freightliners should be put into the National Freight Corporation. There is a very strong argument as to why this should be so, because of all the evidence of the interaction of the service in relation to transport. I do not see how we could have a national freight transport system which excluded this very important service in relation to long hauls where rail and road are both involved.

The Amendment is very different. It seeks to put off the date for five years. I can think of nothing more disastrous to any organisation, particularly one which is evolving rapidly and which is highly successful, than to be told, "In five years' time you will join an organisation" which would also have evolved by then. There would be no possibility of any long-term planning. There would be complete uncertainty for the management. Generally, it would be about the most unsatisfactory way of dealing with this highly successful body at the present time if we were to put this off for five years. The purpose of hon. Members opposite is not the purpose of my hon. Friend the Member for Attercliffe. Hon. Members opposite have designed this as virtually a wrecking Amendment.

I do not think that anybody could seriously suggest that in the present state of this development we could tell those operating liner trains, "You are to join this organisation which is set up now, but you will not join it until five years hence. We cannot tell you what your future will be in six years' time. You have an interregnum of five years". I am rushing through this rapidly because the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) will probably want to say something. This is a totally unacceptable Amendment to the Government. I hope it will be equally unacceptable to all my hon. Friends.

Mr. Peter Walker

I am grateful to the Minister for rushing through his speech to give me a few minutes at the end of this debate. I very much regret the attitude taken by the hon. Members for Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huckfield) and Preston, North (Mr. Ronald Atkins) on this point. They made the charge that the Conservative Party and the Conservative Government have always been contemptuous of the railways.

Mr. Ron Lewis

So they have.

Mr. Walker

Now the hon. Gentleman shouts out the same charge. I refer the hon. Gentlemen concerned to only one fact. I suggest that they study the figures of investments in British Railways during the years of Conservative rule. I am perfectly willing for the Conservative Government to be judged purely on those figures. Let them consider the enormous expenditure on electrification schemes and the starting of the whole freightliner concept; let them consider the manner in which the Conservative Government genuinely tried—

Mr. Ron Lewis

rose—

Mr. Walker

With respect, I have only five minutes to conclude in what we regard as a very important debate.

I hops that both sides of the House will always regard a major industry such as the railways as of great importance and will endeavour to pursue policies towards it which help the industry. Obviously, the two sides of the House will differ about that, but I am convinced that no one really concerned about the fortune of British Railways is happy or pleased with a proposal which takes away from British Railways the salesmanship and commercial success in what is likely to be a considerable success story.

This morning, I had the honour to open the International Container Exhibition at Olympia. I know that the Minister will agree that great pride can be taken in Britain's success here. This country is probably ahead of Europe in container transport development. I visited the British Railways stands at the exhibition, and I found that all the railwaymen present were immensely proud of the progress which has been made. One of the best stands at the whole exhibition tells the success story of British Raliways in this sphere.

When British Railways are at a point in their history when there is a desperate need to attract high-calibre management to take the industry forward, it must be in their interest to retain one of the sectors in which there is great potential for fast expansion. There are many sectors of the railway service in which, by the very nature of things, with people going over to the motor car and so on, there is a decline which the railways cannot possibly prevent; but here is one sector in which there is considerable potential for expansion.

I have discussed this matter with members of the railway unions and with members of the Railways Board. I have not met one railwayman, be he on the management side or on the union side, who has been very pleased at what the Government propose. Adding up all the considerations involved, I am saddened by the prospect for the future. First, the railways will lose some of their ablest commercial men, and, heaven knows, they are short of people with commercial ability, the ability to sell, and so on. Yet under the Government's proposal some of their ablest people will be transferred to the National Freight Corporation. British Railways cannot afford to lose such men of commercial ability. These are the people who, above all, should be retained.

Second, by the proportions of its work force, the nature of its management and the nature of its shareholding, the new National Freight Corporation will be road-dominated. No one studying the likely number of men employed, the number of lorries, and so forth can come to any other conclusion. It is not good management to say to an organisation such as the freightliner service that it is to be merged in another organisation which will be primarily road-dominated. We hear talk of integration in this connection. The hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huckfield) said that he regarded what the Government propose as a sensible move in integration of road and rail services in the public sector. The integration which I seek for the railways and the freightliner service is integration in attracting every possible customer they can to use freightliners. They should do this with the nationalised road services, such as exist, they should do it with private industry, with "C" licence holders, and elsewhere. I do not believe that one can attract the maximum of potential customers by merging the organisation with a road service organisation which is in competition with some of one's most important customers.

There is a host of reasons why the Amendment should be accepted. We

Division No. 173.] AYES [9.30 p.m.
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Costain, A. P. Gresham Cooke, R.
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) Grieve, Percy
Astor, John Crosthwaite-Eyre, Sir Oliver Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Awdry, Daniel Crowder, F. P. Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.
Baker, Kenneth (Acton) Cunningham, Sir Knox Gurden, Harold
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Currie, G. B. H. Hall, John (Wycombe)
Batsford, Brian Dalkeith, Earl of Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Dance, James Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Cos. & Fhm) Davidson, James, (Aberdeenhire, W.) Harris, Frederic, (Croydon, N.W.)
Berry, Hn. Anthony d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Harrison, Brian, (Maidon)
Bessell, Peter Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere
Biffen, John Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) Harvie Anderson, Miss
Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel Digby, Simon Wingfield Hawkins, Paul
Black, Sir Cyril Dodds-Parker, Douglas Hay, John
Blaker, Peter Doughty, Charles Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) Drayson, G. B. Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward
Body, Richard du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Heseltine, Michael
Bossom, Sir Clive Eden, Sir John Higgins, Terence L.
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Elliot, Capt. Water (Carshalton) Hiley, Joseph
Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward Elliott, R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.Z Hill, J. E. B.
Braine, Bernard Emery, Peter Hirst, Geoffrey
Brewis, John Errington, Sir Eric Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin
Brinton, Sir Tatton Eyre, Reginald Holland, Philip
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Farr, John Hooson, Emlyn
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Fisher, Nigel Hordern, Peter
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Hornby, Richard
Bryan, Paul Fortescue, Tim Howell, David (Guildford)
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) Foster, Sir John Hunt, John
Bullus, Sir Eric Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford&Stone) Hutchison, Michael Clark
Burden, F. A. Galbraith, Hn. T. G. Iremonger, T. L.
Campbell, Gordon Gibson-Watt, David Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)
Carlisle, Mark Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Jennings, J. C. (Burton)
Cary, Sir Robert Glyn, Sir Richard Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Channon, H. P. G. Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Johnston, Russell (Inverness)
Chichester-Clark, R. Goodhart, Philip Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Clark, Henry Goodhew, Victor Kaberry, Sir Donald
Clegg, Walter Gower, Raymond Kerby, Capt. Henry
Cooke, Robert Grant, Anthony Kershaw, Anthony
Corfield, P. V. Grant-Ferris, R. Kimball, Marcus

have proposed a period of five years simply because we believe that the enthusiasm which exists in railway management at present for the whole freightliner concept will, given five years to express itself, create a freightliner organisation which no Government, whether the present Government or a Conservative Government, would then wish to take away. We have sufficient confidence in the energy which railway management and men will put into this concept that we are convinced that, at the end of five year, they will have proved that British Railways can develop the service to the full and there will be no need to take it away. It will have attracted stronger management and better men and will have greatly assisted in the recovery of British Railways.

For all those reasons, I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends will press the matter to a Dviision.

Question put, That the Amendment be made: —

The House divided: Ayes 234, Noes 284.

King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Nott, John Smith, John (London & W'minster)
Kirk, Peter Onslow, Cranley Speed, Keith
Kitson, Timothy Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Stainton, Keith
Lambton, Viscount Page, Graham (Crosby) Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Lane, David Page, John (Harrow, W.) Stodart, Anthony
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Pardoe, John Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon)
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) Tapsell, Peter
Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield) Peel, John Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) Percival, Ian Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)
Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) Peyton, John Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Longden, Gilbert Pike, Miss Mervyn Temple, John M.
Lubbock, Eric Pink, R. Bonner Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret
McAdden, Sir Stephen Pounder, Rafton Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
MacArthur, Ian Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch Tilney, John
Mackenzie, Alasdair(Ross&Crom'ty) Price, David (Eastleigh) Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain Prior, J. M. L. van Straubenzee, W. R.
McMaster, Stanley Pym, Francis Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) Quennell, Miss J. M. Vickers, Dame Joan
Maddan, Martin Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James Wainwright. Richard (Colne Valley)
Maginnis, John E. Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter Walker, Peter (Worcester)
Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest Rees-Davies, W. R. Walters, Dennis
Marten, Neil Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David Weatherill, Bernard
Maude, Angus Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Webster, David
Mawby, Ray Ridley, Hn. Nicholas Wells, John (Maidstone)
Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. Ridsdale, Julian Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Mills, Peter (Torrington) Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey Williams, Donald (Dudley)
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)
Miscampbell, Norman Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Royle, Anthony Winstanley, Dr. M. P.
Montgomery, Fergus Russell, Sir Ronald Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
More, Jasper St. John-Stovas, Norman Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Sandys, Rt. Hn. D. Woodnutt, Mark
Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Scott, Nicholas Worsley, Marcus
Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles Scott-Hopkins, James Wright, Esmond
Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Sharples, Richard Wylie, N. R.
Murton, Oscar Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) Younger, Hn. George
Neave, Airey Silvester, Frederick
Nicholls, Sir Harmar Sinclair, Sir George TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) Mr. Humphrey Atkins and
Mr. Hector Monro.
NOES
Abse, Leo Concannon, J. D. Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Albu, Austen Conlan, Bernard Foley, Maurice
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Corbet, Mrs. Freda Foot, Rt. Hn. Sir Dingle (Ipswich)
Alldritt, Walter Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)
Allen, Scholefield Crawshaw, Richard Ford, Ben
Anderson, Donald Cronin, John Forrester, John
Archer, Peter Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Fowler, Gerry
Armstrong, Ernest Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Fraser, John (Norwood)
Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) Cullen, Mrs. Alice Freeson, Reginald
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Dalyell, Tam Calpern, Sir Myer
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) Gardner, Tony
Barnett, Joel Davies, C. Elfred (Rhondda, E.) Garrett, W. E.
Baxter, William Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Ginsburg, David
Bence, Cyril Davies, Harold (Leek) Gourlay, Harry
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Davies, Ifor (Cower) Greenwood, Rt. Hn, Anthony
Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Gregory, Arnold
Bidwell, Sydney de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Grey, Charles (Durham)
Binns, John Delargy, Hugh Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)
Blackburn, F. Dell, Edmund Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly)
Btenkinsop, Arthur Dempsey, James Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Dewar, Donald Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.
Booth, Albert Diamond, Rt. Hn. John Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur Dickens, James Hamling, William
Boyden, James Dobson, Ray Hannan, William
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. Doig, Peter Harper, Joseph
Bradley, Tom Driberg, Tom Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Dunn, James A. Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
Brooks, Edwin Dunnett, Jack Haseldine, Norman
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) Hattersley, Roy
Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) Hazell, Bert
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Eadie, Alex Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Heffer, Eric S.
Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) Edwards, William (Merioneth) Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)
Buchan, Norman Ellis, John Hooley, Frank
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) English, Michael Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) Ensor, David Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)
Carmichael, Neil Evans, Joan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) Hoy, James
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Faulds, Andrew Huckfield, Leslie
Coe, Denis Fernyhough, E. Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Coleman, Donald Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Hughes, Roy (Newport) Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Roebuck, Roy
Hunter, Adam Mayhew, Christopher Rose, Paul
Hynd, John Mendelson, J. J. Ross, Rt. Hn. William
Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) Mikardo, Ian Ryan, John
Jackson, Colin (B'h'se A Spenb'gh) Millan, Bruce Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)
Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) Miller, Dr. M. S. Sheldon, Robert
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Milne, Edward (Blyth) Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.
Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.) Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Moonman, Eric Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Slater, Joseph
Jones, Dan (Burnley) Morris. Charles R. (Openshaw) Small, William
Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyns (W.Ham, S.) Morris, John (Aberavon) Spriggs, Leslie
Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Moyle, Roland Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael
Judd, Frank Murray, Albert Stonehouse, John
Kelley, Richard Neal, Harold Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Kenyon, Clifford Newens, Stan Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.) swain, Thomas
Kerr, Russell (Feltham) Oakes, Gordon Swingler, Stephen
Lawson, George Ogden, Eric Symonds, J. B.
Leadbitter, Ted O'Malley, Brian Taverne, Dick
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) Oram, Albert E. Thomas, Rt. Hn. George
Lee, John (Reading) Orme, Stanley Thomson, Rt. Hn. George
Lestor, Miss Joan Oswald, Thomas Thornton, Ernest
Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S tn) Tinn, James
Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) Owen, Will (Morpeth) Tomney, Frank
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) Page, Derek (King's Lynn) Urwin, T. w.
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Paget, R. T. Varley, Eric G.
Lipton, Marcus Palmer, Arthur Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Lomas Kenneth Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles Walden, Brain (All Saints)
Loughlin, Charles Park, Trevor Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Luard, Evan Parker, John (Dagenham) Wallace, George
Lvon, Alexander W. York) Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) Watkin, David (Consett)
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Pavitt, Laurence
McCann, John Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)
MacColl, James Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred Weitzman, David
MacDermot, Niall Pentland, Norman Wellbeloved, James
Macdonald, A. H. Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) Whitaker, Ben
McGuire, Michael Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) White, Mrs. Eirene
McKay, Mrs. Margaret Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E. Whitlock, William
Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Mackintosh, John P. Price, William (Rugby) Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)
Maclennan, Robert Probert, Arthur Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)
MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) Randall, Harry Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Rankin, John Willis, Rt. Hn. George
MacPherson, Malcolm Rees, Merlyn Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) Reynolds, G. W. Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Rhodes, Geoffrey Winnick, David
Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Richard, Ivor Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.
Mallalieu, J. P. W.(Huddersfield, E.) Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Woof, Robert
Manuel, Archie Roberts, Gwilym (Bedforshire, S.) Wyatt, Woodrow
Mapp, Charles Robertston, John (Paisley) Yates, Victor
Marks, Kenneth Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St.P'c'as)
Marquand, David Robinson, W. O. J. (Walthamstow, E.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard Rodgers, William (Stockton) Mr. Alan Fitch and
Mr. Neil McBride.

It being after half-past Nine o'clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Order, to put forthwith the Question on the Amendment, moved by a member of the Government, of which notice had been given, to that part of the Bill to be concluded at half-past Nine o'clock.

Division No. 174.] AYES [9.41 p.m.
Abse, Leo Allen, Scholefield Archer, Peter
Albu, Austen Alldritt, Walter Armstrong, Ernest
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Anderson, Donald Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)

Clause 6

THE FREIGHT INTEGRATION COUNCIL

Amendment made: No. 25, in page 8, line 12, leave out from first ' than' to end of line and insert' four'.—[Mr. Marsh.]

Amendment proposed: No. 28, in page 8, leave out line 17 and insert 'or administration '.—[Mr. Marsh.]

Question put, That the Amendment be made: —

The House divided: Ayes 278, Noes 234.

Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Gourlay, Harry Mikardo, Ian
Bagier, Gondon A. T. Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony Millan, Bruce
Barnett, Joel Gregory, Arnold Miller, Dr. M. S.
Baxter, William Grey, Charles (Durham) Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Bence, Cyril Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Moonman, Eric
Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Bidwell, Sydney Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Binns, John Hamling, William Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Blackburn, F. Hannan, William Morris, John (Aberavon)
Blenkinsop, Arthur Harper, Joseph Moyle, Roland
Boardman. H. (Leigh) Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Murray, Albert
Booth, Albert Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Neal, Harold
Boyden James Haseldine, Norman Newens, Stan
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. Hattersley, Roy Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip(Derby, S.)
Bradley, Tom Hazell, Bert Norwood, Christopher
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Oakes, Gordon
Brooks Edwin Heffer, Eric S. Ogden, Eric
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Hobden, Denns (Brighton, K'town) O'Malley, Brian
Brown, Rt Hn. George (Belper) Hooley, Frank Oram, Albert E.
Brown Hugh D.(G'gow. Provan) Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Orme, Stanley
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) Oswald, Thomas
Brown, R.W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)
Buchan, Norman Hoy, James Page, Derek (King's Lynn)
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Huckfield, Leslie Page, Derek (King's Lynn)
Bulter, Herbert (Hackney, C.) Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Paget, R.T.
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Palmer, Arthur
Bulter, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Hughes, Roy (Newport) Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles
Carmichael, Neil Hunter, Adam Park, Trevor
Castle Rt. Hn. Barbara Hynd, John Parker, John (Dagenham)
Coe, Denis Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)
Coleman, Donald
Conlan, Bernald Jackson, colin (B'h'se&Spenb'gh) Pavitt, Laurence
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Jackson, Peter M. (High peak) Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Peart, Rt. Fred
Crawshaw, Richard Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'bn & st.P'cras, S.) Pentland, Norman
Cronin, John Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Perry, Earnest G. (Battersea, S.)
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.
Cullen, Mrs. Alice Jones, Dan (Burnley) Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)
Dalyell, Tam Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyry(w. Ham, S.) Price, William (Rugby)
Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Randall, Harry
Judd, Frank
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Kelley, Richard Rankin, John
Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Kenyon Clifford Rees, Merlyn
Davies, Harold (Leek) Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) Reynolds, G. W.
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Kerr, Russell (Feltham) Rhodes, Geoffrey
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Lawson George Richard, Ivor
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Leadbitter, Ted Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Delargy, Hugh Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) Roberts, Gwilym (Bedforshire, S.)
Dell, Edmund Lee, John (Reading) Robertston, John Paisley)
Dempsey, James Lestor Miss, Joan Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St.P'c'as)
Dewar, Donald Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Robinson, W. O. J. (Walthamstow.E.)
Diamond, Rt. Hn. John Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Dickens, James Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) Roebuck, Roy
Dobson, Ray Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Rose, Paul
Doig, Peter Lipton, Marcus Ross, Rt. Hn. William
Driberg, Tom Lomas, Kenneth Ryan, John
Dunn, James A. Loughlin, Charles Shaw, Arnold (llford, S.)
Dunnett, Jack Luard, Evan Sheldon, Robert
Dunwoody, Mrs. Cwyneth (Exeter) Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.
Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) Mabon Dr. J. Dickson Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Eadie, Alex McBride, Neil Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) MacColl, James Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Edwards, William (Merioneth) MacDermot Niall Slater, Joseph
Ellis, John Macdonald, A. H. Small, William
English, Michael McGuire, Michael Spriggs, Leslie
Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) McKay, Mrs. Margaret Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael
Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Storehouse, John
Faulds, Andrew Mackintosh, John P. Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Fernyhough, E. Maclennan, Robert Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) Swain, Thomas
Fietcher, Raymond (likeston) McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Swingler, Stephen
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Mahon, Peter (Preston, s.) Symonds, J. B.
Foley, Maurice Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Taverne, Dick
Foot, Rt. Hn. Sir Dingle (Ipswich) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Thomas, Rt. Hn. George
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfield, E.) Thornton, Ernest
Ford, Ben Manuel, Archie Tinn, James
Forrester, John Mapp, Charles Tomney, Frank
Fowler, Gerry Marks, Kenneth Urwin, T. W.
Fraser, John (Norwood) Marquand, David Varley, Eric G.
Freeson, Reginald Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Galpern, Sir Myer Mason, Rt, Hn. Roy Walden, Brian (All Saints)
Gardner, Tony Maxwell, Robert Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Garrett, W. E. Mayhew, Christopher Wallace, George
Ginsburg, David Mendelson, J. J. Watkins, David (Consett)
Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) Wyatt, Woodrow
Weitzman, David Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) Yates, Victor
Wellbeloved, James Willis, Rt. Hn. George
Whitaker, Ben Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
White, Mrs. Eirene Winnick, David TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. Mr. John McCann and
Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) Woof, Robert Mr. J. D. Concannon.
NOES
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Glyn, Sir Richard Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Montgomery, Fergus
Astor, John Goodhart, Philip More, Jasper
Awdry, Daniel Goodhew, Victor Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Baker, Kenneth (Acton) Gower, Raymond Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Grant, Anthony Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles
Batsford, Brian Grant-Ferris, R. Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Gresham Cooke, R. Murton, Oscar
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) Grieve, Percy Neave, Airey
Berry, Hn. Anthony Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Bessell, Peter Grimond, Rt. Hon. J. Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Biffen, John Gurden, Harold Nott, John
Biggs-Davison, John Hall, John (Wyoombe) Onslow, Cranley
Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Black, Sir Cyril Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Page, Graham (Crosby)
Blaker, Peter Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Pardoe, John
Body, Richard Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)
Bossom, Sir Clive Harvie Anderson, Miss Peel, John
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Hawkins, Paul Percival, lan
Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward Hay, John Peyton, John
Braine, Bernard Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel Pike, Miss Mervyn
Brewis, John Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward Pink, R. Bonner
Brinton, Sir Tatton Heseltine, Michael Pounder, Rafton
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Higgins, Terence L. Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Hiley, Joseph Price, David (Eastleigh)
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Hill, J. E. B. Prior, J. M. L.
Bryan, Paul Hirst, Geoffrey Pym, Francis
Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N& M) Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin Quennell, Miss J. M.
Bullus Sir Eric Holland, Philip Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Burden, F. A. Hooson, Emlyn Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Campbell, Gordon Hordern, Peter Rees-Davies, W. R.
Carlisle, Mark Hornby, Richard Ren-ton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Carr, Rt Hn. Robert Howell, David (Guildford) Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Cary, Sir Robert Hunt, John Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Channon, H. P. G. Hutchison, Michael Clark Ridsdale, Julian
Chichester-Clark, R. Iremonger, T. L. Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey
Clark, Henry Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Clegg, Walter Jennings, J. C. (Burton) Rossi, Hugh (Homsey)
Cooke, Robert Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) Royle, Anthony
Corfield, F. V. Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Russell, Sir Ronald
Costain, A. P. Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) St. John-Stevas, Norman
Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) Kaberry, Sir Donald Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Sir Oliver Kerby, Capt. Henry Scott, Nicholas
Crowder, F. P. Kershaw, Anthony Scott-Hopkins, James
Cunningham, Sir Knox Kimball, Marcus Sharples, Richard
Currie G. B. H. King. Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Dalkeith, Earl of Kirk, Peter Silvester, Frederick
Dance, James Kitson, Timothy Sinclair, Sir George
Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire,W.) Lambton, Viscount Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Lane, David Smith, John (London & W'minster)
Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Speed, Keith
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Stainton, Keith
Digby, Simon Wingfield Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield) Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Dodds-Parker, Douglas Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) Stodart, Anthony
Doughty, Charles Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon)
Drayson, G. B. Longden, Gilbert Tapsell, Peter
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Lubbock, Eric Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Eden, Sir John McAdden, Sir Stephen Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)
Elliot, Capt. Water (Carshalton) MacArthur, lan Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Elliott, R.W.(N'c'tlle-upon-Tyne,N.) Mackenzie, Alasciair (Ross & Crom'ty) Temple, John M.
Emery, Peter Macleod, Rt. Hn. lain Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret
Errington, Sir Eric McMaster, Stanley Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
Eyre, Reginald Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) Tilney, John
Farr, John Maddan, Martin Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Fisher, Nigel Maginnis, John E. van Straubenzee, W. R.
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John
Fortescue, Tim Marten, Neil Vickers, Dame Joan
Foster, Sir John Maude, Angus Wainwright. Richard (Colne Valley)
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) Mawby, Ray Walker, Peter (Worcester)
Galbraith, Hn. T. G. Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. Walters, Dennis
Gibson-Watt, David Mills, Peter (Torrington) Weatherill, Bernard
Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Webster, David
Gilmour, lan (Norfolk, C.) Miscampbell, Norman Wells, John (Maidstone)
Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick Wylie, N. R.
Williams, Donald (Dudley) Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard Younger, Hn. George
Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) Woodnutt, Mark
Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) Worsley, Marcus TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Winstanley, Dr. M. P. Wright, Esmond Mr. Humphrey Atkins and
Mr. Hector Monro.

Further Amendments made: No. 30, in page 8, line 18, leave out 'and'.

No. 31, in line 19, at end insert: and (d) two members who shall be appointed by the Minister—

  1. (i) after consultation with such as appear to him to be appropriate of any organisations appearing to him to represent a substantial number of persons in relevant employment, that is to say, persons who are, or who are due on a transfer and vesting by virtue of this Act of any property, rights or liabilities to become, employed by, or by a subsidiary of, the Railways Board or the Freight Corporation; and
  2. (ii) from among persons appearing to him to have had wide experience of, and to have shown capacity in, the organisation of persons in such employment;

No. 32, in line 30, after '(2)(a)', insert 'or (d)';

No. 33, in line 36, after '(2)(a)', insert 'or(d)';

No. 34, in line 43, after 'or', insert '(d) or subsection '.—[Mr. Swingler.]

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