HC Deb 27 May 1968 vol 765 cc1303-13

A county council, town council or district council in Scotland, or any two or more of those councils acting jointly, may with the approval of the Secretary of State afford financial assistance towards the provision of railway passenger services within, or to or from, their area or areas."—[Dr. Dickson Mabon.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With new Clause 4 I suggest we take the Amendments, in line 1, leave out "district council", and in line 4, at end insert: 'providing that the affording of such financial assistance will not have a substantial effect on the rating burden in the areas covered by the said councils '.

Dr. Dickson Mabon

I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.

The purpose of the Clause is to enable Scottish local authorities to contribute towards the cost of unremunerative rail passenger services serving their areas. In Section 136 of the Local Government Act, 1948, which applies to England and Wales, there already exist enabling powers for local authorities to assist any body …carrying on activities for the purpose of furthering the development of trade, industry or commerce … in their area. No such power exists in Scotland, and it is desirable that Scottish local authorities should be placed for this purpose on an equal footing with their counterparts in England and Wales. On both sides of the Border the powers are permissive, and any expenditure would require the consent of the appropriate Minister.

The new Clause has been welcomed by the local authority associations in Scotland, and will not require Scottish local authorities to shoulder against their will any new burdens. The power will be complementary to the power which already exists in Clause 36 which enables the Minister of Transport to make grants for unremunerative services. Cases might arise in which the Minister is not satisfied that there are sufficient social and economic reasons for an Exchequer grant towards unremunerative services under Clause 36 but in which the local authority concerned would be perfectly willing to meet the deficit from the rates for the general benefit of the local community.

Mr. Edward M. Taylor

Will the Minister say how many local authorities in England have made grants towards the provision of railway services under the powers which they have had since 1948?

Dr. Mabon

One in England and one in Wales. It would be wrong to deny to Scotland the opportunity which is readily available to local authorities in England and Wales. The Clause will enable Scottish local authorities to assist the Railways Board in providing railway services. It will cover such possibilities as the scheme now under consideration by the Highlands and Islands Development Board to reinstate services between Aviemore and Grantown-on-Spey. I would not like to argue that, because powers which have been in existence since 1948 have not been used enterprisingly in England, this rules out the possibility that if we in Scotland had these powers we might not make even more use of them. For example, there is the Highlands and Islands Development Board proposal that we may have a railway museum set up as a tourist attraction in the area. This would not come within the definition of Clause 36 which I mentioned earlier.

The first Amendment to the proposed Clause surprised me because I heard the hon. Gentleman making a comment earlier when my hon. Friend was debating the new Clause in reference to county councils. The hon. Gentleman is contradicting himself. District councils are very important in Scotland, particularly in the parts of Scotland which are not heavily populated. They are very important in statutory terms even though they are not large authorities.

We have in the Bill, at the request of the District Councils Association, power to assist rural bus services and to make capital grants for passenger transport facilities. It would, therefore, be illogical for us to strike out the application of the new Clause to district councils. I have not consulted the district councils, but I do not see them believing that the hon. Gentleman is doing them a favour. From the conversations I have had with individual district councils, I understand that they would want to have powers on a par with the other three classes of local authority in Scotland.

A case might arise where a particular service would be of interest to a district council but not to a county council. I can think of two recent examples of that. Quite a substantial sum of money could be involved with larger district councils. It would be a very great pity if we supported the Amendment of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) and there were a majority view on a county council which prevented the ratepayers in a district from getting the benefit of something they would be prepared, to pay for. This must be a probing Clause, and I feel sure that the hon. Member will not want to persist with his Amendment.

The effect of the second Amendment is to restrict the assistance which local authorities can, if they wish, give towards the provision of railway passenger services to assistance which would not have a substantial effect on the rating burden in the areas covered by the said councils". I do not like to use this as an argument, but the phrase "a substantial effect" is unsatisfactory. It is a phrase which, technically, it is not possible to argue with success in the courts. I must therefore fault the Amendment on this technical point.

To take the intention behind the Amendment, the main reason why the Amendment is unacceptable is that the question whether or not a local authority should add to the rate burden in their area must be primarily a decision for the locally elected representatives. The purpose of the Clause is to put the Scottish local authorities in the same position as their counterparts in England and Wales. The requirement for ministerial consent is an adequate safeguard which I am sure the House will insist on.

6.45 p.m.

Mr. Monro

Could the Minister tell us how many local authorities have made representations in favour of the Clause and how many have made representations against it?

Dr. Mabon

I will answer that towards the end.

Mr. Edward M. Taylor

We have only a quarter of an hour in which to discuss what are very important Amendments put by the Government in a very tight guillotine Motion. The Minister gave as an explanation that in England the powers had been there since 1948 and this was a reason for them to be applied in Scotland. This is a reason which was not apparent when he brought forward the Bill which was discussed for almost four months in Committee. What is the reason for this which has suddenly emerged?

Dr. Mabon

The reason is that the District Councils Association and others have made representations to us during the passage of the Bill. The hon. Gentleman may remember the Amendment which my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) proposed on behalf of the district councils which was incorporated in the Bill.

The answer to the other question is that three local authority associations are in favour.

Mr. Edward M. Taylor

The Minister has said that he has had representations from the district councils, and yet he has also said that this has been discussed with many authorities but not the District Councils Association. I find this impossible to understand.

I am surprised that the Minister should be bringing forward at this time a new Clause which could add very considerably to the burdens of local authorities in Scotland. The Scottish local authorities are extremely vulnerable. Most of the railway lines in Scotland find it difficult to be viable and the scope of putting burdens on the local authorities is considerable. While many passenger transport authorities are to be established in England and there will be the right to precept on the rates, in Scotland we may or may not have one or two passenger transport authorities. The new Clause provides that in the conurbation areas where P.T.A.s are not established, it will still be possible for the burden to be put on the ratepayers.

The Minister has said that there is a protection in that this is permissive, and they may only give the money if they want to. I wonder if the town councils of Glasgow, Edinburgh, Ayr and else- where, with the enormous burdens that they are facing, largely as a result of the policies of the Government, will say to British Railways, "Your problems are greater than ours, we will make a voluntary contribution to allow the service to be continued". This is ridiculous. The Minister must also bear in mind that, while the powers have been there since 1948 in England, we have only had two instances, one in England and one in Wales in that time.

The situation in Scotland as regards the rating burden is not the same as that in England. Comparisons are made with the respective rate burdens taking no account of the fact that there have been revaluations in Scotland, and when one considers the average rating burden, one has only to refer to the famous words in paragraph 215 of the Allen Report which says: The average rate payment in Scotland is greater than in England and Wales as a whole for all income groups, and very considerably so. At the time of the Allen Report, the burden in Scotland was 4 per cent, of our national income, whereas in England it was about 2.9 per cent.

The Minister has talked about permissive powers. Bearing in mind the extra rate burdens which the Government have placed on ratepayers and which are driving some areas to economic suicide, we are extremely apprehensive when the Government bring forward a new Clause which allows local authorities to make voluntary contribution to their trains.

We are very well aware of this danger in Glasgow, where our main commuter service is provided by our electric train system. We understand that it makes a loss of about £400,000 a year. Can the Minister deny that the Clause would be used to put the upkeep of that line on to the shoulders of the ratepayers of Glasgow? There are many other examples of services in other areas—

Mr. Leslie Huckfield

rose—

Mr. Taylor

I am always glad to hear the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huckfield), but we have 10 minutes left, and many of my hon. Friends who represent Scottish constituencies wish to participate.

I am scared that the Government will hold up this Clause to local authorities and say, "If you do not make a voluntary contribution, this line must go". Scottish local authorities are not in a position to bear the burden of supporting uneconomic lines. In Clause 36, we have a provision that assistance can be afforded in cases of unremunerative lines. That is a clear and obvious way in which assistance can be given. If, since 1948, only two local authorities in the whole of England and Wales have said voluntarily that they would like to make contributions towards the railway services, clearly there is no urgency for such a provision in Scotland. Certainly it is quite unjust to bring it forward now when one bears in mind the burdens of Scottish ratepayers.

We have not thrown the Clause out of the window. We have put down an Amendment to say: providing that the affording of such financial assistance will not have a substantial effect on the rating burden in the areas covered by the said councils. The Minister of State asks what is meant by "substantial". I can remember many debates in the Scottish Grand Committee when we have discussed what is meant by "substantial" and "considerable". If the Minister feels that "substantial" or "considerable" is the wrong word, will he bring in an Amendment in another place which, in a different form of words, provides the same safeguard?

I am extremely cautious and very suspicious when I remember the Minister's own record in rating matters, his promise that rates would not go up by more than 4 per cent, when they have risen by 16 per cent., and his pledge that teachers' salaries would be transferred to the Government, nothing having happened since.

Scottish local authorities are facing economic ruin because of the enormous additional burdens placed on ratepayers. Unless the Amendment is accepted, in spirit if not in the form in which it is drafted, I hope that my hon. Friends will throw out the Clause.

Mr. Manuel

The hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) said that he was dealing with this matter in a most cautious way. However, those of us who listened to him feared that he would burst a blood vessel and certainly would not consider that he was at all cautious in dealing with the Clause.

The Clause is permissive. No local authority need do anything about it if it does not want to. If it considers that it will be a severe burden on the rates, it need not look at it. My hon. Friend the Minister of State explained this, but the hon. Gentleman has glided over it in his usual arrogant way and chosen not to listen to my hon. Friend's explanation.

He talked about lines being socially necessary and said that there are so many such lines in every local authority area in Scotland which may go that local authorities will be dragooned into trying to keep them in operation. However, the hon. Gentleman must be aware that the basic railway network for Scotland is laid down in just the same way as it is for England and Wales and that, while it would have dropped to 8,000 miles under the Beeching proposals adopted by his Government, this Government have increased the mileage to 11,000. Therefore, in view of what is know as the "black" railway network, many thousands of miles of line will be kept in operation whether they are losing money or not.

Mr. George Younger (Ayr)

rose—

Mr. Manuel

No, I will not give way.

Mr. Younger

Give way.

Mr. Manuel

I hope that the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) will control himself. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart would not give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huckfield), and I am following his bad example. Usually I am willing to give way, but there are only three minutes to go—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]—I am sure that hon. Gentlemen opposite are aware that I had an Amendment down in Committee to include district councils. Owing to the timetable, it was not reached. Nevertheless, it is going through today, and the reason for it is a democratic one.

The Association of District Councils in Scotland, which is a powerful and democratic body, asked the Government to include district councils. In some areas, although they are not rating authorities, they have quite substantial monies which could help run a ferry service with grant aid from the Government. The hon. Member for Cathcart wants to stultify local government. He does not want the district councils to have any power. I hope that the House will treat his remarks with the contempt that they deserve.

Mr. Younger

I am not happy with the principle of the Clause. It seems to me that we are being asked to approve a shift of responsibility for keeping open railway lines which are necessary for the development of Scotland from the central Government to the local authorities—

Mr. Manuel

Read the Bill.

Mr. Younger

I am very disturbed about what my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) said earlier. If a railway line is threatened with closure and the local authority concerned protests about the proposal to close it and is asked to contribute financially—

Mr. Manuel

It will not be asked.

Mr. Younger

Will it not be told, "If you will not contribute money to keep open the line, you cannot expect your protest to be taken seriously"?

I fear that the Clause is an attempt by the Government to shift financial responsibility from themselves to the local authorities, who will be put into the position of having to pay for uneconomic lines.

Mr. William Baxter (West Stirlingshire) rose—

Mr. Younger

Usually, I give way, but we are about to come under a Guillotine and are not having any chance to debate this matter properly. Many of us have waited for months for a chance to speak on this Bill. In the event, only two or three hon. Members have had an opportunity. This Clause is coming at a deplorable time, and we are not to be given a proper chance to discuss it. In the interests of everyone in Scotland, it should be discussed. I hope that we shall see a better attitude towards the remaining Clauses which affect Scotland.

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Hector Monro.

Mr. Hector Monro (Dumfries)

rose—

It being Seven o'clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Order, to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.

Question put, That the Clause be read a Second time: —

The House proceeded to a Division—

Sir Harmar Nicholls (seated and covered)

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, I did not interrupt the discussion on the previous new Clause, because time was already short. But there are 13 new Clauses which are not being discussed under this guillotine Motion. We

Division No. 171.] AYES [7.1 p.m.
Abse, Leo Davies, Harold (Leek) Hattersley, Roy
Albu, Austen Davies, Ifor (Gower) Hazed, Bert
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Hotter, Eric S.
Alldritt, Walter de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Henig, Stanley
Allen, Scholefield Delargy, Hugh Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town)
Anderson, Donald Dell, Edmund Hooley, Frank
Archer, Peter Dempsey, James Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Armstrong, Ernest Dewar, Donald Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough)
Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) Diamond, Rt. Hn. John Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Dickens, James Hoy, James
Bagier, Cordon A. T. Dobson, Ray Huckfield, Leslie
Barnes, Michael Doig, Peter Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Barnett, Joel Driberg, Tom Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.)
Baxter, William Dunn, James A. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Bence, Cyril Dunnett, Jack Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) Hunter, Adam
Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) Hynd, John
Bidwell, Sydney Eadie, Alex Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)
Binns, John Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Jackson Peter M. (High Peak)
Blackburn, F. Edwards, William (Merioneth) Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas
Blenkinsop, Arthur Ellis, John Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St.P'cras, S.)
Boardman, H. (Leigh) English, Michael Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Booth, Albert Ensor, David Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Bottomley, R. Hn. Arthur Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull W.)
Boyden, James Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. Faulds, Andrew Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn(W. Ham, S.)
Bradley, Tom Fernyhough, E. Jones, J. Irwal (Wrexham)
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Judd, Frank
Brooks, Edwin Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Kelley, Richard
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Foley, Maurice Kenyon, Clifford
Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) Foot, Rt. Hn. Sir Dingle (Ipswich) Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Kerr, Russell (Feltham)
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Ford, Ben Lawson, George
Buchan, Norman Forrester, John Leadbitter, Ted
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Fowler, Gerry Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) Fraser, John (Norwood) Lee, John (Reading)
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Freeson, Reginald Lestor, Miss Joan
Carmichael, Neil Gardner, Tony Lever, Harold (Cheetham)
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Garrett, W. E. Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)
Chapman, Donald Ginsburg, David Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Coe, Denis Gourlay, Harry Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Coleman, Donald Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony Lipton, Marcus
Conlan, Bernard Gregory, Arnold Lomas, Kenneth
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Grey, Charles (Durham) Loughlin, Charles
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Luard, Evan
Crawshaw, Richard Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly) Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Cronin, John Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. McBride, Neil
Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Hamilton, James (Bothwell) McCann, John
Cullen, Mrs. Alice Hamling, William MacColl, James
Dalyell, Tarn Harper, Joseph MacDermot, Niall
Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Macdonald, A. H.
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith McGuire, Michael
Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Haseldine, Norman McKay, Mrs. Margaret

have argued this before and we knew the effect of the Guillotine. We knew that it was against the democratic processes of the House. But there was a point on new Clause 2 when we saw the hon. Member for The Hartlepools (Mr. Leadbitter) filibustering to a point when the Chair had to use words which verged on a rebuke. If, in addition to the Guillotine, we have deliberate filibustering of that sort, it means that Parliament is being denied the opportunity of performing its proper duty.

Mr. Speaker

I am afraid that is not a point of order for the Chair. We are operating under the guillotine Motion.

The House divided: Ayes 279, Noes 235.

Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) Slater, Joseph
Mackintosh, John P. Owen, Will (Morpeth) Small, William
Maclennan, Robert Page, Derek (King's Lynn) Spriggs, Leslie
McMillian, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Paget, R. T. Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael
MacPherson, Malcolm Palmer, Arthur Stonehouse, John
Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Marion, Simon (Bootle) Park, Trevor Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Parker, John (Dagenham) Swain, Thomas
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) Swingler, Stephen
Manuel, Archie Pavitt, Laurence Symonds, J. B.
Mapp, Charles Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) Taverne, Dick
Marks, Kenneth Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred Thomas, Rt. Hn. George
Marquand, David Pentland, Norman Thornton, Ernest
Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) Tinn, James
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) Urwin, T. W.
Mayhew, Christopher Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E. Varley, Eric G.
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Mendelson, J. J. Probert, Arthur Walden, Brian (All Saints)
Mikardo, Ian Randall, Harry Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Millan, Bruce Rankin, John Wallace, George
Miller, Dr. M. S. Rees, Merlyn Watkins, David (Consett)
Milne, Edward (Blyth) Reynolds, G. W. Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)
Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) Rhodes, Geoffrey Weitzman, David
Molloy, William Richard, Ivor Wellbeloved, James
Moonman, Eric Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Whitaker, Ben
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) White, Mrs. Eirene
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshaw) Robertson, John (Paisley) Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kennath (St.P'c'as) Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)
Morris, John (Aberavon) Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.) Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)
Moyle, Roland Rodgers, William (Stockton) Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Murray, Albert Roebuck, Roy Willis, Rt. Hn. George
Neal, Harold Rose, Paul Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Newens, Stan Ross, Rt. Hn. William Winnick, David
Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.) Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.) Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.
Oakes, Gordon Ryan, John Woof, Robert
Ogden, Eric Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.) Wyatt, Woodrow
O'Malley, Brian Sheldon, Robert Yates, Victor
Oram, Albert E. Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.
Orme, Stanley Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Oswald, Thomas Silverman, Julius (Aston) Mr. Alan Fitch and
Mr. J. D. Concannon.
NOES
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Corfield, F. V. Grant, Anthony
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Costain, A. P. Grant-Ferris, R.
Astor, John Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) Gresham Cooke, R.
Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) Crosthwaite-Eyre, Sir Oliver Grieve, Percy
Awdry, Daniel Crouch, David Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Baker, Kenneth (Acton) Crowder, F. P. Gurden, Harold
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Cunningham, Sir Knox Hath, John (Wycombe)
Batsford, Brian Currie, G. B. H. Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Dalkeith, Earl of Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Bell, Ronald Dance, James Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire, W.) Harrison, Brian (Maldon)
Berry, Hn. Anthony d'Avigetor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere
Bessell, Peter Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) Harvie Anderson, Miss
Biffen, John Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) Hawkins, Paul
Biggs-Davison, John Digby, Simon Wingfield Hay, John
Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel Dodds-Parker, Douglas Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel
Black, Sir Cyril Doughty, Charles Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward
Blaker, Peter Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec Heseltine, Michael
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) Drayson, G. B. Higgins, Terence L.
Body, Richard du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Hiley, Joseph
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Eden, Sir John Hill, J. E. B.
Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Hirst, Geoffrey
Braine, Bernard Elliott, R.W. (N'c'te-upon-Tyne, N.) Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin
Brewis, John Emery Peter Holland, Philip
Brinton, Sir Tatton Errington, Sir Eric Hooson, Emlyn
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Eyre, Reginald Hordern, Peter
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Farr, John Howell, David (Guildford)
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Fisher, Nigel Hunt, John
Bryan, Paul Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Hutchison, Michael Clark
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M) Fortescue, Tim Iremonger, T. L.
Bullus, Sir Eric Foster, Sir John Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)
Burden, F. A. Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Campbell, Gordon Galbraith, Hn. T. G. Jennings, J. C. (Burton)
Carlisle, Mark Gibson-Watt, David Johnson Smith G. (E. Grinstead)
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan Johnston, Russell (Inverness)
Cary, Sir Robert Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Channon, H. P. G. Glyn, Sir Richard Kaberry, Sir Donald
Chichester-Clark, R. Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Kerby, Capt. Henry
Clark, Henry Goodhart, Philip Kershaw, Anthony
Clegg, Walter Goodhew, Victor Kimball, Marcus
Cooke, Robert Cower, Raymond King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Kirk, Peter Nicholls, Sir Harmar Smith, John (London & W'minster)
Kitson, Timothy Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael Speed, Keith
Lambton, Viscount Onslow, Cranley Stainton, Keith
Lancaster, Col. C. G. Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Lane, David Page, Graham (Crosby) Stodart, Anthony
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Page, John (Harrow, W.) Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon)
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Pardoe, John Tapsell, Peter
Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (SutnC'dfield) Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsmth, Langstone) Peel, John Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)
Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) Percival, Ian Temple, John M.
Longden, Gilbert Peyton, John Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret
Lubbock, Eric Pike, Miss Mervyn Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
McAdden, Sir Stephen Pink, R. Bonner Tilney, John
MacArthur, Ian Pounder, Rafton Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty) Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch van Straubenzee, W. R.
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy Price, David (Eastleigh) Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John
Macleod, Rt. Hn. lain Prior, J. M. L. Vickers, Dame Joan
McMaster, Stanley Pym, Francis Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) Quennell, Miss J. M. Walker, Peter (Worcester)
Maddan, Martin Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Maginnis, John E. Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter Walters, Dennis
Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest Rees-Davies, w. R. Webster, David
Marten, Neil Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David Wells, John (Maidstone)
Maude, Angus Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Mawby, Ray Ridley, Hn. Nicholas Williams, Donald (Dudley)
Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. Ridsdale, Julian Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)
Mills, Peter (Torrington) Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) Winstanley, Dr. M. P.
Miscampbell, Norman Russell, Sir Ronald Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) St. John-Stevas, Norman Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Monro, Hector Sandys, Rt. Hn. D. Woodnutt, Mark
Montgomery, Fergus Scott, Nicholas Worsley, Marcus
More, Jasper Scott-Hopkins, James Wright, Esmond
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Sharpies, Richard Wylie N. R.
Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) Younger, Hn. George
Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Silvester, Frederick
Murton, Oscar Sinclair, Sir George TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Neave, Airey Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) Mr. Anthony Royle and
Mr. Bernard Weatherill.

Mr. SPEAKER then proceeded to put forthwith the Question necessary to bring to a conclusion the Proceedings on the proposed Clause:—

Question, That the Clause be added to the Bill, put and agreed to.

Forward to