§ 3. Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the cost to public funds of criminal legal aid for each of the past three years at any convenient date.
§ Mr. BuchanCriminal legal aid, which was introduced on a statutory basis in October 1964, cost £42,000 in the financial year 1964–65, £242,000 in 1965–66 and £396,000 in 1966–67.
§ Mr. HannanIn the light of these figures, will my hon. Friend set up an inquiry to find out whether these increasing sums are always justified, and whether the steps taken to recover such moneys from applicants are sufficiently vigorous to comply with the Act?
§ Mr. BuchanI share the concern expressed by my hon. Friend. My right hon. Friend is examining, in consultation with the Law Society of Scotland, possible ways of containing the growth of expenditure.
§ Mrs. EwingAs the criminal legal aid scheme, which replaced the voluntary scheme under which the legal profession gave its services voluntarily under an Act of 1424, provides a smaller umbrella than the voluntary scheme, would the Minister agree that the need is to increase the coverage of the legal aid scheme to restore it to its previous extent? May I also suggest—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Questions must be reasonably brief.
§ Mrs. EwingWould the Minister agree that it would be worth while looking at the possibility of imposing costs by scale according to the income of the applicant, as is done in the civil scheme?
§ Mr. BuchanI said that we were examining the whole system. I do not share the hon. Lady's opinion of the success of the voluntary scheme. There is a better case for the statutory scheme now operating. We must avoid abuses.
§ Mr. WylieWill the Minister endorse the views of his learned friend the Solicitor-General for Scotland that this scheme, and I quote:
… does play a useful and socially necessary rôle in our system—
§ Mr. SpeakerNo quotations in supplementary questions.
§ Mr. WylieWill he assure us that there is no question of reducing the scope of the legal aid scheme, which has performed such a useful social rôle?
§ Mr. BuchanI have emphasised that we must maintain this socially useful rôle of the scheme in order to protect the rights of the accused and especially the innocent. Clearly, however, there is room for thought and investigation into the cost, which is mounting up.
§ 4. Mr. Dempseyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give consideration to introducing legislation to prohibit the granting of legal aid to individuals appearing in court on charges of assault involving offensive weapons on the person who have had previous conviction for similar offences; and if he will make a statement.
§ Mr. BuchanThe present statutory scheme enables persons of inadequate means to exercise their right to have what can be said in their favour brought before the court. Any proposal for modifying the scheme which might have the effect of denying legal representation to persons accused of serious offences is open to objection on grounds of principle. My right hon. Friend has no plans for legislation on these lines. However, he is concerned at the rising cost of criminal legal aid and he is at present considering, in consultation with the Law Society of Scotland, possible ways of containing the growth of expenditure on the scheme.
§ Mr. DempseyIs my hon. Friend aware that in Airdrie sheriff's court recently three persons charged with assault on individuals involving the use of dangerous weapons, some of whom had previous convictions, were defended by three advocates and three solicitors at the expense of the Legal Aid Fund? Does he not think that this is an abuse of the system? Is it not time that he looked at this?
§ Mr. BuchanIt is precisely because I am concerned about certain aspects of the situation that I have said that we are investigating it.
Mr. Edward M. TaylorWhile appreciating the need for proper legal representation for all, would the hon. Gentleman ensure that the funds available to local authorities concerned in the battle against crime will grow at least as fast as the amount available for the Legal Aid Fund?
§ Mr. BuchanAs the hon. Member will know from the figures I gave a week or two ago, as compared with the previous Administration we are considerably increasing expenditure.
§ Mr. WillisIs my hon. Friend aware that there is growing concern over what appears to be the increasingly extravagant use of counsel, both in criminal and civil proceedings? Ought he not to look at this very seriously?
§ Mr. BuchanThe question of day-today administration of the scheme rests with the Law Society and, as I have said, we are investigating this and other matters with it.