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Amendment proposed: No. 38, in page 5, line 1, leave out from 'building' to 'unless' in line 5 and insert
'shall not knowingly cause or permit a furnace therein which is served by a new chimney or the capacity of which has been increased since the commencement of this section to be used in the building as mentioned in section 3(1) above as originally enacted'.—[Mr. Maxwell.]
§ 1.30 p.m.
§ Mr. AllasonIt seems that we are to be given no explanation of this Amendment. I start the ball rolling, therefore, and ask for, at least, an explanation of the concluding words,
in section 3(1) above as originally enacted".Is it intended that Clause 3(1) shall be sacrosanct so that at no time could any Parliament amend it to the extent that it operates on Clause 5?
§ Mr. MaxwellI am sure that that cannot be so. Parliament will always be able to amend the Clause.
§ Mr. AllasonThen what is the purpose of the words, "as originally enacted"? Is it not sufficient to say "as mentioned in section 3(1) above"?
§ Mr. MaxwellPerhaps I might ask for a legal or technical explanation here from the Department. I should be most grateful to have it before answering the hon. Gentleman.
§ Mr. MacCollThere is a general point on the Amendment which I wish to make, but the answer to the point raised by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Allason) is that the object here is to make it possible to alter rates under Clause 3(1) without affecting the working of Clause 5. That is the purpose of maintaining the distinction between the two.
In general, the technical advice which I can give the Committee is that this is a good way of exempting from control a 809 certain number of changes of fuel which it would be fussy to deal with.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendments made: No. 51, in page 5, line 7, leave out 'given' and insert 'granted'.
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No. 39, in page 5, line 13, leave out from 'knowingly' to 'unless' in line 15 and insert
'cause or permit a furnace thereof which is served by a new chimney or the capacity of which has been increased since the commencement of this section to be used as mentioned in section 3(1) above as originally enacted'.
§ No. 52, in page 5, line 18, leave out 'given' and insert 'granted'.
§ No. 40, in page 5, line 24, leave out 'giving' and insert 'granting'.—[Mr. Maxwell.]
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Amendment No. 41 proposed: In page 5, line 29, leave out from 'authority' to 'unless' in line 31 and insert
'shall not approve the height of a chimney under this section'.—[Mr. Maxwell.]
The Deputy ChairmanWe shall consider, at the same time, Amendment No. 42, in page 5, line 40, at end insert—
(5) An approval of the height of a chimney by a local authority under this section may be granted without qualification or subject to conditions as to the rate or quality, or the rate and quality, of emissions from the chimney.
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Amendment No. 43, in page 6, line 17, leave out 'imposed by the local authority' and insert
'as to the rate or quality, or the rate and quality, of emissions from the chimney, or may cancel any conditions imposed by the local authority or substitute for any conditions so imposed any other conditions which the authority had power to impose'.
§ Mr. AllasonThese Amendments put a mandatory requirement on the local authority as regards approval of the height of chimneys. Previously, it was permissive. When we discussed the question of fuels on Clause 5, the Parliamentary Secretary told us in Committee that it was all right to leave fuels under Clause 5 because it was permissive. It now becomes mandatory. If we accept these Amendments, I should like an assurance from the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Maxwell) that he will accept Amendment 21, now that the ground has been cut from under his feet 810 by his hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary.
§ Mr. MacCollAmendment No. 41 limits the scope of the conditions which a local authority may apply, so it is a liberalising measure.
§ Mr. AllasonI agree that it restricts authorities so that they may deal only with the height of a chimney and not with its shape, colour and so on, but the subsection will now become mandatory, so to that extent the objection remains.
§ Mr. MacCollThis is a carefully agreed formula. I quite understand that the Committee wishes to examine it with care, and I do not suggest otherwise, but the formula has been agreed with the interests concerned on how to balance the need for this control in the hands of local authorities and the need to prevent their using it, as the hon. Gentleman suggests, in ways which have nothing to do with chimneys and smoke control.
These Amendments do not interfere with the general discretion of the local authority save in so far as they limit it in the conditions which it may impose.
§ Amendment agreed to.
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Further Amendment made: No. 42, in page 5, line 40, at end insert—
(5) An approval of the height of a chimney by a local authority under this section may be granted without qualification or subject to conditions as to the rate or quality, or the rate and quality, of emissions from the chimney.—[Mr. Maxwell.]
§ Mr. CostainI beg to move Amendment No. 50, in page 5, line 44, leave out 'eight' and insert 'four'.
We have given the hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Maxwell) a very easy run up to this point because we want to get the Bill through. I am delighted to see sitting beside him his hon. Friend the Member for Luton (Mr. Howie), who has for many years been connected with a well-known firm of consulting engineers. I am sure that he will support me in this Amendment and take the opportunity to whisper into the ear of the hon. Member for Buckingham the reasons why it should be accepted.
The purpose here is to hurry approval along so that local authorities do not hold up the development of industrial 811 buildings and factories and cause unemployment thereby. The purpose is to secure approval from local authorities in four weeks, not eight. The design of a chimney can affect the whole layout of a building. It can hold up all the plans and the commencement of work, causing unemployment and the loss of export orders.
The Ministry has produced an excellent document entitled "The Height of Chimneys". The hon. Member for Luton will be familiar with it. He must have used it on many occasions. The document consists of four sheets showing tables of figures. The person who must approve the height of the chimney refers to the document, assesses the type of district and assesses the emission in lb.-hours, and then, on the other side of the scale, he sees the correct height of the chimney.
§ Mr. MaxwellI am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends for the progress which they have allowed the Bill to make. I have much sympathy with the purpose of this Amendment, and I am happy to accept it.
§ Mr. MacCollI do not want to be the skeleton at the feast—or whatever the appropriate metaphor is—but I must tell the Committee that, although we have consulted the local authority associations, the matter is not finalised. If we heard objections to the Amendment, my noble Friend in another place might think it necessary to ask for the matter to be looked at again. I should not like to be denounced as having got something through by saying that we would accept it and then sabotaging or double-crossing the House in another place. However, subject to that, I agree with what my hon. Friend says.
§ Mr. CostainI am not clear whether the Parliamentary Secretary supports the Amendment, or is taking the ordinary precautions which one expects from the Department. I shall not know the answer until the Question is put, but I have the clear impression that the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Howie) who is expert in these matters and understands them as well as I do, sees the practical force of my argument here and recognises that, by accepting the Amendment, we could enable work to start sooner and help to bring unemployment down.
812 As I understand him, the Parliamentary Secretary is prepared to accept the Amendment, but he warns that in another place there might have to be second thoughts. If there are second thoughts, the question will come back to the House and we shall have to debate it again. Not by the wildest stretch of the imagination, however, can I see any reason why the Amendment should not be made.
Chimneys such as those of cement works come under the Alkali Act. If a local authority official spends more than ten minutes on this piece of paper, he will be doodling to pass the time. He will then have to visit the site and make a decision. If that cannot be done in four weeks, there is not much hope of Britain making progress.
§ Mr. W. Howie (Luton)I am flattered by the kind way to which the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Costain) has referred to me during this short debate. He and my hon. and hungry Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will be glad to learn that I shall not lengthen the debate unduly. I learned during the considerable number of years that I spent in the consulting engineering world carefully to study things said by contractors, even by the very eminent and respectable contractors such as the hon. Gentleman, whose reputation in the building world stands very high.
I advise my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Maxwell) carefully to consider what the hon. Gentleman has said and to undertake to discuss the hon. Gentleman's proposals with him with a view to making an Amendment at a later stage, if my hon. Friend and the hon. Gentleman can reach an agreement under the general guidance of the Minister.
§ Mr. MaxwellI am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Luton (Mr. Howie). I propose to accept the Amendment, because initially I asked for 30 days for the very reasons mentioned by the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Costain). The Ministry asked for eight weeks, because local authorities are very busy in meeting the many demands made upon them. Four weeks could impose a tight schedule. However, these matters are so important 813 for industry that I thought that an exception should be made and that 30 days would be sufficient. Therefore, subject only to what my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary has said about any problems of an important nature arising making it necessary for me to come back and ask for six weeks—in other words, I do not want to be called a dirty dog for changing my mind—I accept the Amendment.
§ Amendment agreed to.
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Further Amendments made: No. 43, in page 6, line 17, leave out 'imposed by the local authority' and insert:
'as to the rate or quality, or the rate and quality, of emissions from the chimney, or may cancel any conditions imposed by the local authority or substitute for any conditions so imposed any other conditions which the authority had power to impose'.
§ No. 44, in page 6, leave out lines 34 to 45.
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No. 45, in page 7, line 2, leave out from 'or' to 'before' in line 3 and insert:
'the plans for which were passed'.—[Mr. Maxwell.]
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Amendment proposed: No. 46, in page 7, line 11, at end add:
'as respects any chimney serving a furnace'.—[Mr. Maxwell.]
§ Mr. AllasonThis is a thoroughly sloppy Amendment. The original intention was that Section 10 of the 1956 Act should be deleted. The hon. Gentleman then found that it was needed in certain cases, so he seeks to retain it, but to add some words to Clause 5(11) to secure that Section 10
shall cease to have effect as respects any chimney serving a furnace".How is anyone in future to tell what the 1956 Act means? Will there be a scribble down the side of the Act, saying, "Subsection 4 shall not take effect as regards any chimney serving as a furnace"? It would be simpler to make a proper Amendment to the Act.Section 10(4) reads:
This section shall not apply to the erection or extension of a generating station as defined in the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, other than a private generating station as so defined.It would be simple to add, "or to any chimney serving as a furnace". That would make sense. I appreciate that an 814 Amendment to that effect has not been tabled, but I urge the hon. Gentleman to take appropriate steps in another place.
§ Mr. MaxwellI am advised that the position as it stands is adequate, but I will carefully consider whether what the hon. Gentleman has suggested would improve the situation.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.