Equal Pay (Hansard, 6 May 1968)

§ 32. Mr. English
asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity if she will make a further statement on equal pay.

§ 36. Mr. Alldritt
asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what progress has been made in the discussions on equal pay between the Trades Union Congress, the Confederation of British Industry, and her Department.

§ Mr. Heffer
On a point of order. Before an Answer is given, I seek your guidance, Mr. Speaker. I notice that my right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity is not present but that a number of junior Ministers are present. The other day a junior Minister replied when I asked a Question arising from the Liverpool bus strike. There may be a perfectly good reason, but I think that the House is entitled to know what the position is.

§ Mr. Speaker
That is not a point of order for the Chair.

§ The Under-Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity (Mr. Harold Walker)
I have nothing to add at present to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Milne) on 11th March, 1968.—[Vol. 760, c. 971–3.]

§ Mr. English
That is the trouble. Would not my hon. Friend agree that it is about time we did something about discrimination against women?

§ Mr. Walker
Of course I agree. The Government's policies are directed to this end. Today a survey of women's employment has been published which will give some useful guidance on this subject.

§ Mr. Alldritt
Is my hon. Friend aware that we are now lagging behind our European neighbours in this matter? Will he take steps to engender some sense of urgency in those responsible for negotiation?

§ Mr. Walker
The study to which I referred and the other studies which are taking place between the C.B.I., the T.U.C., and my Department on the question of implementation of equal pay will give us some useful information and guidance on whether my hon. Friend's assertion is correct.

§ Dame Irene Ward
With all these reports floating around in the air and all these bodies getting out different bits of information, when will a consolidated opinion be expressed? Could we not have a debate on the whole subject? As all the financial pundits are upstairs, it would be a good opportunity for us to express our opinions.

§ Mr. Walker
The question of a debate is not for me. On the question of the progress we are making and the number of studies being conducted, because of the tremendously complex nature of the situation it is essential that we gather all the relevant statistical and other information on the basis of which we could make our conclusions and present them to the House. Had some of this work been done prior to 1964, we might have made more rapid progress.

§ Mr. Shinwell
What is the use of my hon. Friend talking about studies? Is he aware that this principle was accepted by the Labour Party and the trade union movement many years ago? When will it be implemented? Does not this reinforce the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer)? Why on such an important issue is not the principal Minister present?

§ Mr. Walker
My hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary made a very lengthy statement on 18th December which set out some of the reasons for the delay in implementation. We are anxious to move to this end as quickly as is consistent with other Government policies and with due regard to the situation set out in that statement.

§ Mr. R. Carr
Why did the Labour Party make a specific promise in its election manifesto if it had not got the facts necessary to implement it?

§ Mr. Walker
We made the promise because we have every intention of implementing this. We have to do it on the basis of a proper understanding of the problems involved and on the basis of the relevant statistical information, which obviously takes time to gather.

§ Mrs. Renée Short
My hon. Friend keeps talking about the need to gather statistical information. Is he aware that there are 4 million women in Britain who are used more or less as slave labour earning less than half the hourly rate of men in industry? Is not this a disgrace? Is it not time that we implemented what the Prime Minister has said on two platforms when he spoke in support of the 50th anniversary of partial women's franchise? Is it not time that we got on with it?

§ Mr. Walker
I am sure that my hon. Friend would never allow herself to be used as slave labour. Today my Department published a survey of women in employment. It contains a wealth of material. Because it has been published only today, we have not yet had an opportunity, as I am sure that my hon. Friend has not, of studying fully what the position is as set out in that document. I hope that my hon. Friend will study it most carefully.

§ 37. Mr. Tomney
asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity how large the gap is between the wage rates of men and women.

§ Mr. Harold Walker
This varies between industries. Basic rates for men and women in major industries and services are published by my Department annually in "Time Rates of Wages and Hours of Work".

§ Mr. Tomney
Is my hon. Friend aware that this gap is not growing any narrower? Is he further aware that my right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State, in her more carefree days on the Opposition benches, was a great advocate of equal pay for equal work for women? Now that she has attained her present high office and been richly rewarded in the process, will my hon. Friend acquaint her of the fact that it is time the Government put this principle into operation?

§ Mr. Walker
I am sure that my hon. Friend listened to the Answers I gave on previous Questions and will appreciate that my right hon. Friend, although she has been in office for only a very short time, has indicated that she is taking new initiatives and bringing new vigour to this office.

§ Sir G. Nabarro
Is not the right hon. Lady's absence today connected with this Question? Is the Joint Parliamentary Secretary aware that at every General Election since the war the Labour Party has promised equal pay? Only in office does it run away from its promises. Is not this flagrant political turpitude?

§ Mr. Walker
If the hon. Gentleman will contain himself till 1971, he will find whether his allegations are justified.

§ 38. Mr. Tomney
asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity if she will state the details of average earnings of men and women workers, together with average hours worked.

§ Mr. Harold Walker
In October, 1967, the latest date for which information is available, the average weekly earnings of men manual workers and women manual workers were £21 7s. 6d. and £10 11s. 2d., respectively, in the industries and services covered by my Department's half-yearly inquiry. The corresponding figures of average weekly hours worked were 46.2 and 38.2, respectively, and the resulting figures of average hourly earnings were 111.0d. and 66.3d., respectively.

§ Mr. Tomney
The difference between the two sets of earnings shows the severe penalty to which women workers are subjected as part of their contribution to industry. I again ask my hon. Friend to reconsider this problem and to bring the earnings somewhere near parity.

§ Mr. Walker
I accept that the figures do not reflect a very happy state of affairs, but none the less they must be examined very carefully in terms of the basis of computation, in that the statistics for men include many occupational categories for which women are unsuited and in which they do not participate. They also include, for example, payments for overtime and night work, which women very often, for obvious reasons, are not in receipt of.

§ Dame Irene Ward
Will the Joint Parliamentary Secretary give us a specific undertaking that the right hon. Lady, in her new position, will before long give both sides of the House and opportunity of cross-questioning her as to when we shall get the whole matter put into proper and fair perspective?

§ Mr. Walker
No doubt my right hon. Friend will be present next Monday when my Department is top of the list for Questions.

§ Mr. Orme
I support many of the points of view about equal pay. Is my hon. Friend aware that recently in one of the largest industries in Britain, namely, the engineering industry, the private employers flatly rejected any improvements in women's wages? Will my hon. Friend take action in regard to this?

§ Mr. Walker
This is a matter for negotiation between the two sides of the industry. My right hon. Friend's views have been sufficiently often proclaimed. It is pertinent to point out the progress towards this end in the public sector as contrasted with the abysmally poor performance of the private sector.

§ Mr. R. Carr
Will the Joint Parliamentary Secretary give the House an undertaking that the First Secretary of State will make a statement next week, in view of her absence today, on whether the Government will keep or break their election promise?

§ Mr. Walker
The question of a statement is not for me to answer. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman tables a Question to my right hon. Friend.

§ 44. Mr. English
asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity if she will give the official definition of equal pay.

§ Mr. Harold Walker
The definition of equal pay is one of the matters which the 27 Government have been discussing in their joint talks with the Confederation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress. Solely for the purpose of an examination of cost which is being undertaken, the definition contained in Article 119 of the Treaty of Rome is being used. This is equal remuneration for the same work as between men and female workers".

§ Mr. English
Will my hon. Friend agree that, while he and his colleagues are discussing this matter, his right hon. Friend's salary might be reduced to, say, 50 per cent. of its present level until she has implemented equal pay for every woman in the country?

§ Mr. Walker
It is not the Government's policy to cut anyone's salary.

§ Mr. R. Carr
Is the hon. Gentleman telling the House that the Government made this promise to the electorate without even knowing what they meant by equal pay or what the definition was?

§ Mr. Walker
There were quite a number of things which the Government did not know until they had opportunity to examine the books. None the less, the Government are determined fully to implement all their election pledges, and I am sure that, by the time 1971 comes, we shall have a proud record.