§ GENERAL FUNCTIONS OF THE COMMISSION
§ Question again proposed, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
§ 7.56 p.m.
§ Mr. H. P. G. Channon (Southend, West)When the proceedings were interrupted at 7 o'clock I was just concluding my remarks. I am sorry that the Government have not seen fit to accept the proposed compromise arrangements suggested in another place. There is no point of party philosophy here, and it is a decision which would be regretted by hon. Members in all quarters. I regret the Government's decision, and I would be inclined to oppose the Government's Motion, That this House doth disagree with the Lords. I hope that my hon. Friends will agree to support the Lords in their attempts to change the title.
§ Mr. Michael Jopling (Westmorland)I have a somewhat chequered personal history in this matter, because on Second Reading I made a rather bizarre speech about the problems which my constituents have when visitors come to the Lake District National Park, and find it difficult to distinguish between an urban and a national park. I remember quoting examples of how these problems make life extremely difficult for my constituents in some of the valleys of the Lake District. I made the point that I very much disliked this name "National Parks". I still dislike it and at an earlier stage I invited anyone who could think of a better name to let me know.
No one has given me any suggestions, and I have not been able to think of one, although I have spent a great deal of time trying to do so. I have come to the reluctant conclusion that there is no better name than "National Park". When I was trying to find a better name the Minister of State said he would consider it if I could think of one. We have to live with this name and the only solution is to try and educate the public to distinguish between an urban and a National Park.
134 I fear that I will have to change my attitude which I took in Committee when I and my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon) voted with the Government, although we were defeated. I could have wished to have been in better company. We have to live with the name. The Lords Amendment seeks to call it the "Countryside and National Parks Commission" which gives less emphasis to this phrase "National Park". I have given a great deal of thought to this, but I must come down in favour of the proposal put by their Lordships. I hope that the Government will have second thoughts on this and will drop their determination to reject the Lords Amendment. There is a very good case for keeping the Title as their Lordships have made it.
§ Mr. Peter M. Jackson (The High Peak)I should like to endorse what the hon. Member for Westmorland (Mr. Jopling) has said, and hope that the Government will have fourth or fifth thoughts on this. The counter-argument is that this is not the wish of the National Parks Commission. When the matter came before the House on Report, I referred to the views of the Commission which sat under Lord Strang. I was corrected by my hon. and learned Friend and told that that might be Lord Strang's view in his day, but it was not the view of the Commission today.
I took the trouble of looking up the reports of the National Parks Commission as published under the chairmanship of Baroness Wootton, and I should like my hon. and learned Friend to look at the report published in 1966 under her chairmanship. I understand that the composition of the Commission has not changed since the issue of this report, except for one person. I have great difficulty in reconciling the written word as it appears on page 79 of the report with the views now attributed to the National Parks Commission. This is what the Commission said in 1966:
It is important therefore that the name 'national park' should not be withdrawn from public notice, or that any impression should be given that the cause of national parks will be allowed to go by default. The National Parks Commission have therefore strongly advised that the name to be given to the new Commission should be the Countryside and National Parks Commission. This proposal 135 was made by the National Parks Commission, and the Minister has recently attended one of their meetings.We made the initial mistake when moving our Amendment in Committee of giving priority to the term 'National Parks'. The Amendment then adopted was to make the title read "National Parks and Countryside Commission". We were obviously in conflict with the Commission sitting under Baroness Wootton which wished the title to read "Countryside and National Parks Commission". In another place an Amend-
§ ment was carried to the effect that the term "National Parks" should go back into the title, and I hope that my hon. and learned Friend will give further thought to this, and at least tell us why it is that between 1966 and 1968 the present Commissioners have had further thoughts.
§ 8.0 p.m.
§ Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment: —
§ The House divided: Ayes 122, Noes 81.
137| Division No. 231.] | AYES | [8.1 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Hoy, James | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Paget, R. T. |
| Beaney, Alan | Hunter, Adam | Pavitt, Laurence |
| Blackburn, F. | Hynd, John | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Booth, Albert | Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill | Pentland, Norman |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Jackson, Colin (B,h'se & Spenb'gh) | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan | Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) |
| Buchan, Norman | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Rankin, John |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Judd, Frank | Robinson, w. 0. J. (Walth'stow, E.) |
| Chapman, Donald | Kenyon, Clifford | Roebuck, Roy |
| Coe, Denlis | Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Shaw, Arnold (llford, S.) |
| Concannon, J. D. | Lawson, George | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Leadbitter, Ted | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | Silverman, Julius |
| Dell, Edmund | Lestor, Miss Joan | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Dickens, James | Lipton, Marcus | Slater, Joseph |
| Dobson, Ray | Lomas, Kenneth | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Doig, Peter | Loughlin, Charles | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Eadie, Alex | Lubbock, Eric | Thomas, Rt. Hn. George |
| Ellis, John | McBride, Neil | Tinn, James |
| Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yard ley) | McCann, John | Urwin, T. W. |
| Fernyhough, E. | MacDermot, Niall | Varley, Eric G. |
| Fletcher, Raymond (llkeston) | McGuire, Michael | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Maclennan, Robert | Wainwright, Richard (Coine Valley) |
| Ford, Ben | MacPherson Malcolm | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Fowler, Gerry | Manuel, Archie | Wallace, George |
| Fraser, John (Norwood) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Gourlay, Harry | Maxwell, Robert | Wellbeloved, James |
| Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Mendelson, J. J. | Whitaker, Ben |
| Gregory, Arnold | Millan, Bruce | White, Mrs. Eirene |
| Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Milne, Edward (Biytn) | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Hannan, William | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Harper, Joseph | Moyie, Roland | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Murray, Albert | Woof, Robert |
| Haseldine, Norman | Newens, Stan | |
| Hazell, Bert | O'Malley, Brian | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Orme, Stanley | Mr. Ernest Armstrong and |
| Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Oswald, Thomas | Mr. Charles R. Morris. |
| NOES | ||
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Gibson-Watt, David | Irvine, Bryant God man (Rye) |
| Batsford, Brian | Glyn, Sir Richard | Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) | Goodhew, Victor | Jennings, J. C. (Burton) |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Grant, Anthony | Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W.Ham,S.) |
| Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) | Grant-Ferris, R. | Jopling, Michael |
| Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) | Grieve, Percy | Knight, Mrs. Jill |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Lane, David |
| Cooper-Key, Sir Neill | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry |
| Costain, A. P. | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Loveys, W. H. |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Hawkins, Paul | McAdden, Sir Stephen |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel | Maude, Angus |
| Errington, Sir Eric | Hill, J. E. B. | Mawby, Ray |
| Eyre, Reginald | Holland, Philip | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Hornby, Richard | Mills, Peter (Torrington) |
| Foster, Sir John | Hunt, John | Monro, Hector |
| More, Jasper | Pink, R. Bonner | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon) |
| Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart) |
| Murton, Oscar | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Pym, Francis | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Rees-Davies, W. R. | Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Onslow, Cranley | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Osborn, John (Hallam) | Scott, Nicholas | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) | Sharples, Richard | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Page, Graham (Crosby) | Silvester, Frederick | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) | |
| Psrcival, lan | Smith, John (London & W'minster) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Pike, Miss Mervyn | Speed, Keith | Mr. Timothy Kitson and |
| Mr. Humphrey Atkins. |
§
Lords A mendment, No. 2: In page 1, line 11, after first "for" insert:
the conservation and enhancement of the natural beauty and amenity of the countryside and ".
§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Niall MacDermot)I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
If it is agreeable to the House I suggest that we discuss with this Amendment Lords Amendment No. 58, in the Title, in line 4, after"for"insert:"the conservation and enhancement of natural beauty and for".
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher)If the House agrees, so be it.
§ Mr. MacDermotThe effect of the first Amendment is to add
the conservation and enhancement of the natural beauty and amenity of the countryside ".to the list set out in Clause 1(2) of the functions which the Commission has to exercise under the Bill. The effect of the second Amendment is to make a consequential amendment to the long Title of the Bill.A similar Amendment, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for The High Peak (Mr. Peter M. Jackson) and others in Standing Committee, was not selected.
The National Parks Commission is at present charged with the duty of exercising its functions under the Act of 1949 for the preservation and enhancement of natural beauty in England and Wales. The Countryside Commission would be under the same duty. Under Clause 2(2) it would be under a duty to keep under review all matters relating to
the conservation and enhancement of the natural beauty and amenity of the countryside".There are further references in the Bill to natural beauty and amenity.138 It is not necessary, as a matter of law, to have any further elaboration of the Commission's responsibility in these matters. One may say that these Amendments are really presentational, but they concern matters to which some people attach a good deal of importance. I can see no harm in them and I would advise the House to accept them.
§ Mr. ChannonI am grateful to the Minister of State for his attitude towards the Amendment. I am sure that my hon. Friends will be delighted to support their Lordships in this Amendment. We owe a debt of gratitude to another place for having passed the Amendment, having voted on it and defeated the Government on that occasion. I am grateful to the Minister for accepting it. Although it will make but a small difference, it is along the right lines.
§ Question put and agreed to.