Clause 6 (Hansard, 13 June 1968)

§ Sir G. Nabarro
The short title of the Clause is, "Power to appoint further additional members of the Gas Council," and I want to know, primarily, what for? The Gas Council is already a large and somewhat unwieldly body. Reference to its Annual Report and Accounts for 1966–67 shows that it has sixteen members, of whom twelve are members of the area board, two are full-time members of the Gas Council, one is the Deputy Chairman and the other is the Chairman, Sir Henry Jones. Why do we want the Council to have more than sixteen members?
The Council is largely a functional body. The Chairman of each area board reports the activities of his organisation and there are four men at the centre. It is well known that the bosses of 537 nationalised industries are very difficult to find. There is a shortage of talent. Men and women seem reluctant to serve on the boards of nationalised industries, not only because they do not pay commercial rates, but also because the freedom and the enterprise manifest in non-state undertakings, that is, in the private sector of industry, trade and commerce, is, to genuine businessmen, infinitely preferable to a quasi-bureaucratic function on a State board.
There was recently the extraordinary spectacle of a Deputy Chairman of the Railways Board being appointed at a salary of £500 per annum more than that paid to the Chairman. This is a passing reference, but it has a great bearing on the Clause, which would recruit two additional members to the Gas Council.
Where will they be obtained? What will their quality be? What are they to be paid? Will the Minister confide in the House, first, about why he wants these additional men, since the Gas Council has no added burden of responsibility so far as I know; second, where he hopes to recruit the men in appropriate quality; and, third, what he intends to pay them? We would not like the mistake repeated which was made with the British Railways Board.
The Minister, who is listening to me intently, of course, will know that there is a great deal of derangement in the salaries of the chairmen and deputy chairmen of nationalised boards. I will not go through the whole gamut, but they include the salary of Lord Robens and of the Chairman of the Electricity Council, the Chairman of the Gas Council, the Chairman of the British Steel Corporation, the Chairman of B.O.A.C. and the Chairman of B.E.A., and there is no uniformity or relationship between these salaries.
Therefore, every time it is built into a Bill that a nationalised board is to be enlarged, as in this case, it is pertinent and propitious for hon. Members to make some inquiries about the kind of recruits, where they are to come from, the salaries they are to receive and, above all, why they arc necessary. There are sixteen members on the Gas Council at the moment, and I doubt whether it will be a better organisation for having eighteen. 538 I hope that I shall have explicit answers, particularly on the important matter of salaries.

§ Mr. Gunter
I had never expected that we should be involved in a wide-ranging debate, on this Clause, about the salaries paid in nationalised industries and I do not propose to participate in one. We are all aware, of course, of the anomolies and the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) is quite right that there is some difficulty in recruiting what one might regard as the right men for the salaries being offered in nationalised industries. This is very much a matter of consideration by the Government at the present time.
I do not propose to enter into any discussion on the salaries that are to be paid. As I said in the Second Reading debate, there is need to strengthen the Gas Council, which will be required, in the period that lies ahead, to bear even greater responsibilities. We are passing from a period of the manufacture of town gas, diversified all over the country, to a period when there is one common supply. The Government think, and so do the Gas Council, that in the area of marketing and financial control it would be advantageous to strengthen what in essence, leaving aside for the moment the 12 area board chairmen, is a small Board. That is why we have suggested that there should be two additional members of the Gas Council.
8.30 p.m.
The hon. Member will recall that in my Second Reading speech I stated that we were giving consideration—and I hope this will be in the next Session of Parliament—to bringing forward suggestions on how the structure of the industry might be adapted to meet the requirements imposed by the introduction of North Sea gas. As the first step, with the introduction of natural gas, it was necessary to strengthen the Board, particularly in the area of financial control. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if we do not make this the opportunity for a general debate on salaries in nationalised industries.

§ Sir G. Nabarro
I see no reason for a general debate, but I wish the right hon. Gentleman would answer my explicit question. What is he proposing to pay the two additional members of the Board? 539 If the hon. Gentleman comes to the House and asks for permission to recruit two additional members to the Board, he must tell the House what he will pay them. Why not?

§ Mr. Gunter
I will certainly inform the House at the appropriate time what the pay will be, "but not tonight, Mary ".

§ Sir G. Nabarro
I refuse to be called "Mary" by the right hon. Gentleman. Why not tonight? This is the Committee stage of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman will not get along very well with me in the future if he behaves in this rather arrogant and overbearing fashion. The right hon. Gentleman has been asked a perfectly simple and reasonable question. He is proposing two additional members for the Board. How much will he pay them? Why is this not a propitious occasion on which to tell the House of Commons? They are being paid out of public money. Why is the right hon. Gentleman such a retiring and reticent creature this evening in this important matter?

§ Mr. Gunter
I cannot indict the hon. Gentleman of those two things anyway!

§ Sir G. Nabarro
I do not wish to be indicted of anything. I merely wish the right hon. Gentleman to perform his Ministerial duty, which is to tell the House of Commons, as he appoints the two additional members of the Board, how much he proposes to pay them on first appointment. If not tonight, when 540 does he propose to tell the House the salaries he intends to pay and whether they are more or less than those of the existing Chairman and Deputy Chairman? It is no good his replying that of course he will not pay them more than the Chairman or the Deputy Chairman, when a member of his Government has just appointed a Deputy Chairman to the British Railways Board at a salary higher than that of the Chairman of the British Railways Board. It is that kind of anomaly that I am seeking to obviate by my penetrating questioning this evening. It will not do the right hon. Gentleman's public reputation any good if he runs away from answering the questions I put to him on this important matter. I give the right hon. Gentleman a final opportunity to do the proper thing and reply to my questions.

§ Mr. Gunter
I have replied to the hon. Gentleman's question. I will inform the House at the appropriate moment.