HC Deb 12 June 1968 vol 766 cc205-8
2. Mr. Dalyell

asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will consider arranging a number of open days in 1969 at the Microbiological Research Establishment, Porton.

Mr. John Morris

Yes, Sir.

Mr. Dalyell

I thank my hon. Friend. Would it then be possible to bring this forward to 1968? May I say that I welcome this Answer, in so far as a full open day would help to remove part of the mystery from biological warfare activities?

Mr. Morris

I am glad of my hon. Friend's words of welcome for my reply. I hope that the open day will be held in the autumn of 1968, or possibly early 1969.

Sir G. Nabarro

Will the hon. Gentleman explain what value he considers that open days can have in the examination of microbes at Porton?

Mr. Morris

What I am seeking to do —and I hope that this meets the wishes of the hon. Gentleman—is to balance national security and public interest. I have been to Porton myself recently and I have concluded that there is merit in my proposal, and I commend it.

40. Mr. Emrys Hughes

asked the Secretary of State for Defence how many experiments on animals have teen conducted on animals at the Porton Microbiological Station in 1964, 1965, 1966 and 1967, respectively; and what were the animals.

Mr. John Morris

As the Answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. Hughes

Could the Minister raise the veil a little? What kind of animals are experimented with in this place which has become a Belsen for the animals concerned? Is it not time that the Government had a thorough inquiry into this horror place, in which, thank goodness, the British public are getting more and more interested, and about which they are becoming more enlightened?

Mr. Morris

The scientists at Porton have been subjected to quite intemperate attacks recently. They are doing valuable work, and it is in the interests of the citizens of this country, who must be defended. I hope the open days which I announced a few minutes ago will relieve any public anxiety which may exist. As regards the kind of animals, they are mice, voles, guinea pigs, hamsters, monkeys and sheep.

Sir H. Legge-Bourke

Would the hon. Gentleman not agree with those of us who have seen the way in which these animals are looked after, and the efforts which are made to avoid any unnecessary suffering whatsoever, that for those who are looking after the animals there can be nothing but praise?

Mr. Morris

I am sure that those who have charge of these animals will appreciate the words of the hon. Gentleman, and indeed the Littlewood Report highly praises the standards at the Porton establishments.

Mr. Dalyell

While praising the enlightened decision which my hon. Friend announced earlier this afternoon, may I ask him if he can explain why it was that the B.B.C. in its recent film was not allowed to show television pictures of the animals, pictures it could easily get and in fact got from Sweden? Why was that decision made?

Mr. Morris

The explanation is quite simple, in that there are, I understand, legal restrictions, not confined to Porton, which apply generally to experiments of this kind, and there are restrictions under the Cruelty to Animals Act, 1876.

Mr. William Hamilton

Could my hon. Friend consider the suggestion that Members of this House should have more facilities for seeing what is happening at Porton to allay—

Sir G. Nabarro

We have them.

Mr. Hamilton

We have not. Could my hon. Friend please consider how Members of Parliament who want to see exactly what is happening at Porton may do so without any restrictions on them?

Sir A. V. Harvey

On a point of order. The Minister just attempted to give an answer to a question about B.B.C. responsibilities in this matter. There are other matters about the B.B.C. we should like to question—how Bendit-Cohen got into this country. Why should one Member get an answer and not another?

Mr. Speaker

Order. The Chair cannot be responsible for Ministers' answers.

Mr. Morris

As regards Members of the House, I hope that the statement which I made earlier about open days will be generally welcome, and I hope that Members of the House will be invited to go along to see the establishments at Porton when the open days come.

Mr. William Hamilton

Without any restrictions?

Sir G. Nabarro

Will the Minister give the House an unequivocal assurance that he will do nothing to inhibit bacteriological investigation at Porton so long as there are dangers in the world at large of a bacteriological attack on this country?

Mr. Morris

I think in one of my earlier answers I made it clear that one had to balance public security, on the one hand, with the interest of the public, on the other. I think that I can satisfy the hon. Gentleman on that.

Mr. Heffer

Referring to the answer to my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell), has my hon. Friend got it right? Is he really saying that there is an Act of Parliament of 1876 that does not allow films to be shown?

Mr. Morris

No. This is really a matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. Speaking off the cuff, I gather there are certain restrictions about photographs of animals, to which I believe that the Act of 1876 applies. If my hon. Friends wish further details, I would ask them to direct their questions to the Home Secretary, who is the best person to answer them.

Following is the answer:
1964 1965 1966 1967
Mice 27,414 60,268 22,110 26,882
Guinea-pigs 4,587 1,027 368 720
Hamsters Nil 1,106 790 825
Voles Nil Nil 67 60
Monkeys Nil Nil 10 63
Sheep 8 16 4 44

Note:

  1. (a) If, for example, ten animals are used in one test this counts as ten experiments.
  2. (b) The large increase in the number of mice used in 1965 was due to the beginning of a new programme of work on virus diseases concurrently with work on bacterial diseases.

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