§ Amendment made: No. 28, in page 24, line 10, leave out from 'a' to 'pleasure' in line 14 and insert 'travelling showmen's'.—[Mr. Elystan Morgan.]
§ Mr. CallaghanI beg to move Amendment No. 87, in page 24, line 20, to leave out from second 'receive' to 'any' in line 21.
There is a formidable group of Government Amendments down to this Clause which perhaps it would be for the convenience of the House to consider with No. 87. They are: Nos. 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93 and 94.
§ Mr. Rees-DaviesI suggest that we could also discuss two Amendments standing in my name. They are No. 129, in page 24, line 25, leave out 'five' and 178 insert 'ten', and No. 130, in line 32, leave out 'five' and insert 'ten'.
§ Mr. CallaghanThe purposs of the Government Amendment is to recast the endings of subsections (3) and (4). The Clause as drafted stipulates the prizes in money or in kind or combinations of both which can be given by machines when used for amusement purposes. The Amendments represent no change in intention. They are designed to clarify the drafting. At the same time, they correct two defects.
First, the general principle of these amusement machines is to allow prizes in money or in kind within prescribed limits to be delivered either directly by the machine itself or obtained in exchange for tokens delivered by the machine. Subsection (3)(d) as it stands provides for delivery by the machine of a combined prize consisting of up to 2s. in money and an article up to the value of 5s., less the amount of the money prize. But nowhere does it provide for the delivery of a token exchangeable for a combined prize within these limits. The Amendment rectifies that omission.
Now for an even more important point. Subsection (4) allows for the machine which gives a winner some money back plus another go. The form of words in the Bill as drafted gives rise to doubts about the case of a machine which gives another go, and then another, and then another, and then another which the player may be winning.
§ Mr. CallaghanYes, and one always wins a prize. The whole point of going with Labour is that one constantly wins.
We are recasting the wording to provide that this is permissible, provided that the 2s. maximum is not exceeded. I hope the House will agree that these Amendments will make the intention clearer.
Amendments No. 129 and 130 would increase from 5s. to 10s. the maximum prizes in value to be won in a single go or used as the component of the calculation where prizes are given partly in money and partly in kind. The 1960 Act proposed a limit of 1s. on prizes in cash. 179 The 1964 Act put a limit on prizes in kind of 5s. Clause 33 raises the limit on cash prizes to 2s. besides allowing a combined prize—a great novelty, this —up to the value of 5s., of which 2s. may be in money.
These machines are intended to be used for amusement purposes and not for gaming in any serious sense. For that reason they, unlike gaming machines proper, are allowed to be installed in places open to the public.
10.45 p.m.
Even allowing for the fall in the value of money since 1960, this would be stretching the conception of amusement a little. While Clause 30(8) gives me power to vary the stipulated limits by order, I think it would be some time before I should wish to do so. I know that there are some interests among machine manufacturers and retailers, as well as customers, who would want these machines converted into gaming machines with the advantage of unrestricted public access and the Amendment would be a step in that direction, but on the other hand other manufacturers do not believe that it is necessary in any way to increase the amount from 5s. to 10s. I have had consultations about this and, although I see the point of the Amendment suggested by the hon. Member for Isle of Thanet, I could not ask the House to accept it.
§ Mr. Rees-DaviesWith devaluation the prize is now paltry—one cannot even get 20 cigarettes with it. The interests which are against the proposal like to give paltry prizes, but others want to give the public something worth while.
§ Mr. CallaghanThese machines are for amusement. They have no restrictions imposed on them. Some of them are designed as one-arm bandits. Without giving any assurance, I rest on the fact that subsection (8) gives me power if the prizes seem paltry even for amusement purposes, to look at the question again.
§ Mr. BuckIt was some time before one realised the importance of these complicated Amendments. Then one realised that there has been a complete restructuring of the whole of Clause 33. It would have been rather interesting 180 had the Bill gone through unamended, to see ingenious operators designing a machine able to deliver not only a teddy bear but also tokens and money. It is obvious, since these prizes can be collected over the counter, that there would be an absurd situation under the Clause as originally structured. It is much better now it has been completely revised. We are glad that the anomaly has been cleared up.
As opposed to the earlier Amendment, where there is a strict limitation of two gaming machines in a club there is flexibility as to the amount that can be given in prizes. Perhaps 5s. is all right as a starting point, although if the value of money continues to go down, the Home Secretary will have to make an order very quickly to increase the amount.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Further Amendments made: No. 88, in line 23, at end insert:
'or a token exchangeable only for such a money prize'.
§
No. 89, in line 25, at end insert:
'or a token exchangeable only for such a non-monetary prize or such non-monetary prizes'.
§ No. 90, to leave out lines 26 to 29.
§
No. 91, in line 32, at end insert:
'or a token exchangeable only for such a combination of a money prize and a non-monetary prize'.
§
No. 92, in line 32, at end insert:
(d) one or more tokens which can be used for playing one or more further games by means of the machine and, in so far as they are not so used, can be exchanged for a non-monetary prize or non-monetary prizes at the appropriate rate.
§
No. 93, in line 34, leave out from 'that' to end of line 41 and insert:
'a player, after inserting in the machine an amount permitted in accordance with subsection (2) of this section and playing a game successfully, is afforded by the automatic action of the machine an opportunity to play one or more further games without inserting any further coin or token in the machine, if in respect of all those games—
§
No. 102, in line 42, leave out from 'of to 'the' in line 43 and insert:
'a travelling showmen's pleasure fair '.—[Mr. Elystan Morgan.]
§ Mr. Elystan MorganI beg to move Amendment No. 113, in page 25, line 6, at end insert:
(7) No permit for the purposes of this section shall be granted in respect of any premises where a licence under this Act is for the time being in force in respect of them or where a club or a miners' welfare institute is for the time being registered in respect of them under Part II of this Act; and, where such a licence is granted or a club or a miners' welfare institute is so registered in respect of any premises, and a permit granted for the purposes of this section is then in force in respect of those premises, the permit shall thereupon cease to have effect.I understand that it is intended to take with this Amendment No. 115.
§ Mr. MorganThe Amendment, on which the second is consequential, prohibits permits being granted under Clause 33 for the use of machines for "amusements with prizes", either to a licensed club or to a registered club or miners' welfare institute, and annuls any existing permits where premises become so licensed or registered.
Licensed and registered clubs or institutes are each entitled under Clause 33 to the use of two gaming machines with large or unlimited prizes. Under Clause 31, a licensed club may forgo this right in exchange for the use of any larger number of amusement machines with limited prizes as the licensing authority may allow, this arrangement being in substitution for any right which the club might otherwise be considered to have to apply to the local authority for a permit for such machines under Clause 33. Accordingly, the machine permit system is only appropriate in the case of premises to which Part II of the Bill does not apply.
The considerations in the case of the registered clubs and institutes are different. Whereas a licensed club, and a bingo club in particular, may be prepared to forgo its gaming machines so as to allow more, if less profitable machines to be available for the use of its members during intervals of the bingo sessions, and prevent the disorderly 182 crowding which often occurs, it is most unlikely that any members' club or institute would willingly make such an exchange, from which it could be expected to lose money. The issues here is whether they should be allowed amusement machines on permit in addition to their two gaming machines. This the Amendment prevents. The gaming machines are a considerable financial privilege in themselves, and it is one of the objects of Part III of the Bill to prevent the further proliferation of machines of any type by giving rights of use which do not exist at present.
§ Mr. BuckI am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for his explanation. However, I do not see why a registered club should not have amusemenets with prizes in substitution, perhaps, for the two gaming machines which it is allowed at the moment. On the other hand, I cannot see that there is any strong argument in favour of such a club being alowed to have them. It appears that the registered clubs have not made any strong representations on the matter. If they have, perhaps the hon. Gentleman can tell us.
§ Mr. MorganI am not aware of any such representations, but that does not mean that some were not sent to my predecessor. However, I doubt very much whether any were made.
§ Mr. BuckI think that we may take it that any representations would have come to the attention of hon. Members on this side of the House had there been any strong feelings about the matter.
Personally, I feel extreme indifference for the Amendment, and I shall not labour the House further with my indifference.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendment made: No. 94, in page 25, line 11, leave out '(3)(c)' and insert ' (3))(d)'.—[Mr. Elystan Morgan.]