§ 25. Sir C. Osborneasked the Secretary of State for Defence on what date the Government arms salesman was appointed; for what period; on what remuneration; what staff and premises he employs; what are his total annual sales; and what profit has been made up to the most recent convenient date.
§ Mr. HealeyThe Head of Defence Sales was appointed on 16th May, 1966, for an initial period of two years at a salary of £8,000 a year. The total staff employed under the Head of Defence Sales are 197 civil servants and six Service officers. They occupy premises in three Government buildings in London, at an establishment in Derby and at three overseas posts. Total annual sales are running at over £150 million a year of which some two-thirds are made by 1417 firms and about one-third by the Government. As regards sales made by the Government, we look to these to recover, in addition to our direct costs, a proportion of our expenditure on research and development and to make a contribution towards other fixed overheads.
§ Sir C. OsborneDo I understand the profit to be £150 million a year?
§ Mr. HealeyNo. I said "sales".
§ Sir C. OsborneThen, before I ask a supplementary question, could I ask what was the profit made?
§ Mr. HealeyThe hon. Gentleman will know very well that it is difficult to calculate profit when one is dealing with sales by private firms where one may not have full information of the profit that they have received.
§ Sir C. Osborne rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Mr. Emrys Hughes.
§ Mr. Emrys HughesMay I ask my right hon. Friend, first, if this arms salesman is responsible for any sales to Nigeria, and, second, what justification the Government have for paying a man £8,000 a year to act as a commercial traveller and salesman for private arms interests?
§ Mr. HealeyWe believe that it is important, both for financial and political reasons, for this country to play a part in providing arms and equipment for its friends in the world. One of the purposes of having a Head of Defence Sales is to enable us to do this, taking into account all the political factors which may be relevant to a possible sale.
§ Mr. Emrys HughesDo not forget Nigeria.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Mr. Tom Price.
Mr. J. T. PriceDoes the Minister of Defence recollect that, ever since the days of Sir Basil Zaharoff, this party has rightly condemned the employment of merchants of death? Many of us still condemn the practice and are very disturbed to see senior Ministers of the Crown associated with it.
§ Mr. HealeyI am aware of the strong feelings on this matter. I am also aware of the fact that hon. Members on both 1418 sides protest very fiercely when a contract which might have gone to a British firm goes to a foreign one. If my hon. Friends will only talk to some of their supporters in their constituencies about the economic and technological consequences of renouncing all activity in this field, they might reflect a different view.
§ Mr. James DavidsonWill the right hon. Gentleman answer his hon. Friend's question about Nigeria?
§ Mr. HealeyYes, Sir. I think that I am right in saying that the contracts with Nigeria were undertaken before the Head of Defence Sales was appointed.
§ Sir C. OsborneOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was not allowed a supplementary question. I was merely asking for information to enable me to frame a supplementary question.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman has had his supplementary question.
§ Sir W. Bromley-DavenportFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have never questioned your Ruling, but my hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) asked a Question of the Minister which the right hon. Gentleman specifically avoided. My hon. Friend then asked a supplementary question designed to get the right hon. Gentleman to answer the original Question, which was what profit has been made.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Mr. Speaker, like the hon. and gallant Gentleman, was here when the exchange took place.