HC Deb 16 July 1968 vol 768 cc1231-6
Mr. Dance

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that following the recent salary increases for nurses and adjustments in the charges for living-in staff, some first year student nurses now receive £1 less per month than they received before the increases; and what has been the result of the National Board for Prices and Incomes re-examination of the matter.

Mr. K. Robinson

No, Sir; the second part of the Question does not therefore arise.

Mr. Dance

This is quite disgraceful. Does the Minister realise that I have two cases bearing out what is in the Question? Does he now know why he has great difficulty in recruiting people to this very honourable profession?

Mr. Robinson

If the hon. Gentleman has cases, he might have been better advised to send them to me. The fact is that the training allowances increased by exactly the same proportion as the board and lodging charges, and, unless something very strange happened in one very exceptional week, this could not arise. I should be glad to look into the cases.

Mr. Molloy

I appreciate that hon. and right hon. Members opposite have very little cause to complain about nurses' pay because they did nothing about it when they were in office, but would my right hon. Friend agree that there is a need to look at this whole question, from the point of view not only of the last award, but some of the points made in the last debate?

Mr. Robinson

I am sure that the Whitley Council will note everything said in the last debate. Nurses' pay has been considered objectively and independently by the Prices and Incomes Board. This is the first time that this has happened for a very long time.

Mr. Maurice Macmillan

Would not the Minister accept that, despite that objective consideration, a number of student nurses are receiving training and pay which, taken together, mean that they are being used as cheap labour in hospitals?

Mr. Robinson

No. These are training allowances. I ask the hon. Gentleman to remember that.

23. Mrs. Knight

asked the Minister of Health if he has studied the report of the Royal College of Nursing, a copy of which is in his possession, as to the serious implications for nursing education of Report No. 60 of the National Board for Prices and Incomes; and what action he proposes to take.

28. Mr. Fortescue

asked the Minister of Health what discussions he has had with the nurses and midwives concerning the recommendations about training in Report No. 60 of the National Board for Prices and Incomes on the Pay of Nurses and Midwives in the National Health Service.

Mr. K. Robinson

I have studied the Royal College report and met, at its request, representatives of nursing education. There have also been informal discussions between officers of my Department and interested groups. I shall shortly be consulting the appropriate bodies about the Board's recommendations.

Mrs. Knight

As the nurses take an almost completely opposite view in every particular to Report No. 60 on the question of nursing education, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman which general light he intends to be illuminated by—the nurses or the Board?

Mr. Robinson

I do not accept what the hon. Lady says. I agree that some of the recommendations about training have caused disturbance in the profession. As I said during the debate on 1st July, I do not intend to act hastily on them, and there will be proper consultation with the service and with the profession.

Mr. Fortescue

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what proposals he has for a greater degree of integration between the training of student nurses and the training of pupil nurses as recommended by the Board?

Mr. Robinson

That is very much a matter for the professional bodies concerned whom I shall be consulting about this and other recommendations in the Board's Report.

Mr. William Hamilton

Can my right hon. Friend give any idea of the time-scale which he has in mind before these problems are resolved.

Mr. Robinson

No, Sir. I am anxious to make progress but these are important matters and they should not be rushed.

27. Dr. Winstanley

asked the Minister of Health what progress has been made in the setting up of a National Nursing Management Council as recommended by the National Board for Prices and Incomes.

Mr. K. Robinson

I am considering this recommendation.

Dr. Winstanley

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that doubt and uncertainty about these matters is leading to a serious degree of resentment and frustration in the nursing profession? Will he endeavour to give the matter special attention so that he can give speedy answers to this question and end this uncertainty among nurses?

Mr. Robinson

I have always supported measures to improve management efficiency in the hospital service, not only on the nursing side. This is a matter for constant attention, and hospital authorities are fully aware of its importance. Certainly we shall not drag our feet in considering these recommendations.

Mr. Pavitt

Will my right hon. Friend be a little bolder and less cautious in the implementation of Salmon and the other recommendations before him and do something about a radical reorganisation including progressive patient care and go faster than putting just two prototypes of the Salmon Report in each regional board area?

Mr. Robinson

This is only a beginning, and a beginning which was agreed with the profession when the Salmon Report was first considered. In the light of the Prices and Incomes Board, we are working out ways to speed up its implementation of the Salmon Report.

32. Mr. Dean

asked the Minister of Health what discussions he has had with nurses and midwives concerning the recommendations about management in the Report No. 60 of the National Board for Prices and Incomes on the Pay of Nurses and Midwives in the National Health Service.

Mr. K. Robinson

There have been some informal discussions between officers of my Department and interested groups. I shall shortly be consulting the appropriate bodies about the Board's recommendations.

Mr. Dean

Will the right hon. Gentleman do this speedily? Does he recognise that there is a real danger that as the salary structure is operating it will cause confusion within the nursing service?

Mr. Robinson

I accept that it is desirable to plan the completion of the implementation of the recommendations of the Salmon Committee, and I am consulting hospital authorities about a workable timetable. Whether it is desirable at this stage to set out a precise target date, as the Board recommended, I am not fully convinced.

34. Mr. Holland

asked the Minister of Health whether he will now give an undertaking that no nurse will be financially worse off as a result of action taken following the Report No. 60 of the National Board for Prices and Incomes on the Pay of Nurses and Midwives in the National Health Service.

Mr. K. Robinson

Some of the Board's recommendations are still under negotiation in the Whitley Council, but it seems unlikely that anyone working the same hours in the same post could be worse off as a result of agreements reached. Changes recommended in special duty allowances, though estimated to cost initially about £8 million a year, would have led to reduction in pay for some nurses, but the Whitley Council, after consulting the Board, has agreed that those hitherto eligible for these allowances may opt to continue to be paid on the present basis while in their present posts, and that the additional cost of this should be offset by postponing the operative date from 1st April to 1st May.

Mr. Holland

In order to encourage part-time nurses who are willing to work three or four night duties a week, or to work on Sundays, will the right hon. Gentleman give a firm assurance that they will not suffer as a result? Does he not agree that every encouragement should be given to them?

Mr. Robinson

Yes. We can be satisfied that so long as they stay in the same post at the same hospital they will not suffer. An anomaly that we have now put right was one of the unforeseen consequences of the Prices and Incomes Board's Report.

Dame Irene Ward

With all the anomalies and all the alterations which have to be made and considered over the whole scale of the nursing profession, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is thoroughly satisfied that he gave proper consideration to all the proposals put forward by the nursing profession? Can he say whether, in considering the problems of the nurses, he pays more attention to those who can represent the nurses or to the civil servants in his Department, who have never been particularly good about dealing with the requirements of the nursing profession?

Mr. Robinson

First, I utterly reject the last part of the hon. Lady's suggestion and the reflection that it makes upon my advisers, whom she well knows are not in a position to answer for themselves. I can assure her that in my view the Prices and Incomes Board gave full weight to the evidence it received on nurses' pay and conditions from the representatives of the nurses themselves.