§ 3.46 p.m.
§ Mr. Ronald Bell (Buckinghamshire, South)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to establish a permanent commission to which the Minister of Labour may refer for report and recommendation matters relating to the structure and operation of trade unions; to deal with mischiefs arising thereout; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid.The general climate of opinion has changed greatly since I began to advocate this some nine or ten years ago as a first step in dealing with problems which now exercise people's minds. Though the proposal contained in the Bill has not been adopted by any political party, each party has considered other ways of dealing with the same problem.That, at least, is progress. At first, the fairly general reaction was that nothing should be done by Parliament or the Government and that such matters should, in the phrase which was almost sacred at one time, but which now is never heard, be left to "both sides of industry". In my view, the expression "both sides of industry" is itself an anachronism, and long years of leaving it to both sides produced remarkably little result.
Trade unions occupy a powerful position in our national life. They affect many people directly and all people indirectly. It would not be surprising if provision existed already for their accountability such as that proposed in the Bill, or some machinery of a more positive character. The continuing absence of it and the hostility to it which lingers here and there is due, I think, to the history of protracted and often bitter struggles by which the trade unions built up their position. They built it up in constant collision with established authority and with the law. Although that battle is long past, it is still difficult for some people to realise that the trade unions are now part of the establishment and must assume a stable place in the balance of the constitution.
By a process very familiar in our history, the successful rebel assumes, with a share of power, a share of responsibility, and, once the militant phase is over, a share of accountability. In public matters, everyone is accountable to someone else. Many are accountable to 1352 Ministers of the Crown—we sometimes think that too many are. The Ministers are accountable to this House. This House is accountable to the people. Employers as such are accountable to the Monopolies Commission and the Restrictive Practices Court.
§ Mr. Frank Allaun (Salford, East)Not in the case of lock-outs.
§ Mr. BellBy virtue of their size, cohesion and immunity from legal process over a wide area, trade unions now exercise great power. But they are excluded from the competence both of the Monopolies Commission and of the Restrictive Practices Court. They are not answerable to any Minister of the Crown, nor are they answerable to this House. The objections to and difficulties in making them answerable in any of those four ways are too obvious to need any further exposition from me this afternoon.
The Bill which I seek to introduce tries to overcome this problem by setting up a Commission—not another Royal Commission to brood over the subject for two or three years and then produce a general report which must be controversial, and which may therefore need another two or three years of brooding over—but a permanent Commission, analogous to, though different from, the Monopolies Commission. The Monopolies Commission can consider only what the President of the Board of Trade refers to it. I propose that the Trade Union Commission should consider only matters referred to it by the Minister of Labour.
Like the Monopolies Commission, it should have power to report and make recommendations which, if Parliament so resolved by affirmative Resolution of both Houses, would have the force of law. That, again, is the procedure in the case of the Monopolies Commission. The matters which could be referred to it would be those relating to the activities and structure of trade unions. I do not believe that particular industrial disputes between employer and employee could be successfully referred to a body of this kind.
Matters relating to union structure in a particular industry might usefully be so referred. We might not have spent so many fruitless years trying to grapple, 1353 for example, with demarcation disputes in the shipbuilding industry, with a final solution still out of sight, if we had had a mechanism of this sort available. I remember that the Shipbuilding Advisory Committee said that the situation in the industry:
…stems from the history and traditions of the industry, which die hard and have their effects even after the original cause has disappeared.Such a Commission would also be useful in dealing with those embarrassing and difficult cases affecting personal liberty and membership of trade unions, with which we have no other way of dealing. There are many cases of restrictive practices which have been condemned from both sides of this House.
§ Mr. Frank AllaunAs has the hon. and learned Gentleman's profession.
§ Mr. BellI am always happy to extend the application and grateful for support for the principle. I refer to such practices as those in the London newspapers, which were so scathingly referred to in paragraphs 77 to 114 of the Report of the Royal Commission on the Press. It pointed out, among other things, in relation to the magnitude of those practices that many of them were 40 years old and added:
Inefficiency is not turned into efficiency because the parties have agreed to it …The truth is that the very organisation of industrial relations in this industry contributes to inefficiency.It may be asked why, since we have a Royal Commission about to report, deal with the matter at this moment? The danger of a Royal Commission is that when it reports there may be initiated a broad doctrinal solution of this problem, while what I ask leave to introduce is a much more British and pragmatic method of approaching the problem—a method which, by its very character, would enable there to be gradually built up a volume of case law on the subject by a series of fair and impartial reports.The next step might easily take shape in our minds and be as uncontroversial as the Restrictive Practices Court was after some years of the Monopolies Commission. All this should have been done years ago. It is the simplest and most practical way of doing things, and it takes the heat out of the controversy, allowing 1354 particular solutions to be found for particular problems. A new perspective then builds up naturally as time passes. Instead, we have let the whole matter drift because of its awkwardness, and we will very soon find ourselves forced to make general decisions of speculative effect on generalised arguments in the inflamed atmosphere of party controversy.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I must remind the hon. and learned Gentleman that he is proceeding under the Ten Minute Rule.
§ Mr. BellI am now closing, but the occasional interruption, which itself is unusual on these occasions, and I believe contrary to our practice, inevitably slightly stems my progress. The House has seen fit to give leave for this Bill in the past. Owing to adverse conditions at four o'clock on Friday afternoons, it has not made further progress. I ask leave again in the hope that, with better fortune and in the changed climate, the proposals which I favour may be more fully considered to, I believe, the public advantage, as this great problem moves at long last to the foreground of political attention.
§ 3.55 p.m.
§ Mr. Eric Ogden (Liverpool, West Derby)I rise to oppose this Motion put forward by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell). In the kindest possible way and in the shortest possible time I will ask the House to put this Motion out of its misery by voting against it in the Division Lobby. May I first declare my interest as a member of one of the oldest and, I think, one of the most honourable trade unions in this country, the National Union of Mineworkers. I would emphasise that I speak not at the behest of my union, or for any other union, but as the elected representative in this place of my electors of Liverpool, West Derby.
A Tory Motion to reform the trade unions is becoming an annual event. In 1966 we had a Motion put forward by the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger), which has now been lost in the mists of time. In 1967 a Motion was put forward by the hon. and learned Member, and that was shot down in flames most effectively by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell). Now, in 1968, we have this call 1355 for a permanent trade union commission, not some transitory thing, but a permanent commission, with, no doubt, a distinguished chairman, a learned judge perhaps.
I would not suggest that the hon. and learned Member is attempting to make jobs for the old boys. No doubt its membership will comprise constitutional lawyers, representatives of learned institutions and industry and trade unions, a gaggle of noble Lords, resurrected from oblivion in another place, with their advisers on admissions, experts on evidence, pundits on procedure, clerks for correspondence and typists for transcripts—all permanently employed on a permanent commission. With ten, 20 or 30 members to make it fully representative, it would need perhaps 40, 50 or 70 members of staff, all civil servants, with someone to make the tea.
There would have to be a permanent home, worthy of its dignity, here in central London, Westminster perhaps. That will cost a pretty penny, and it will take the wages of a great many railwaymen, postmen, dockers and shop assistants to pay for that little lot. This permanent commission is an unnecessary growth of bureaucracy.
The Opposition complained ferociously yesterday, and the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) at 10 o'clock led his battered and bleeding troops—and my hon. Friends can be selective about the adjectives—through the Division Lobby to complain about the continued growth of bureaucracy.
§ Mr. OgdenIt seems only a short time ago that the hon. and learned Member for Buckinghamshire, South went into the Lobby complaining about the growth of bureaucracy. At three o'clock this afternoon he is asking for more bureaucrats—probably on the principle that if he cannot beat them he had better join them.
However, if he is serious in his intentions—and I confess that I have some doubt of that because of his use of words like "mischief" and "accountability" and so on—I would remind the House that we have a Commission sitting at this 1356 time, a Commission created not by the hon. and learned Member and his hon. and right hon. Friends, because the present Leader of the Opposition, when he was Minister of Labour, refused a request for a Royal Commission on the Trade Unions; but we have a Royal Commission on Trade Unions and Employers' Associations, and the matters it is proposed it should deal with, I remind the House, are
To consider relations between managements and employees and the role of trade unions and employers' associations in promoting the interests of their members and in accelerating the social and economic advance of the nation, with particular reference to the laws affecting the activities of these bodies".It is hoped the Commission will report in April. I can understand the hon. and learned Member's impatience about some things, but I do not think that to wait till April is too much to ask.I have tried to be fair, and I tried to get some more information about Conservative proposals for trade union reform, and so this morning I went along to the Tory Party's Central Office in Smith Square and was received by a charming young lady—I was given a warm welcome—if not designed, then chosen, to distract one's attention from the more serious aspects of politics, and, perhaps, to make the Tory Party more attractive. I said that I was trying to find something about Conservative proposals about trade union reform.
I had to wade past displays—the old Conservative trick—of the flag of our country, a trick the Conservatives use when trying to raise funds. At last I got some information. I got a Conservative manifesto, and in it was a chapter, "The Conservative way ahead", which said:
First, we will be transforming industrial relations by introducing a new Act covering the trade unions and employers' associations.No doubt they intend to transform them. I got a pamphlet entitled, "Productivity, Wages, and the Trade Unions", and another pamphlet entitled, "Trade Unions for Tomorrow "——
§ Mr. SpeakerI hope the hon. Member now will come to the Bill.
§ Mr. OgdenI was wading my way from the Central Office to come to it, Mr. Speaker, but I could find little, if anything, about a Bill.
1357 Trade unions in this country have played an honourable rô1e in the past, and are doing so in the present. Their members, in a free society, are entitled to band together to serve the interests of their members. They have accepted their -responsibilities, and the hon. and learned Member is offering nothing which they need. We know perfectly well what the Tory Party means when it talks about trade union reform. It means attacking he trade union movement, which is the first line of security of the Labour Move-
§ ment. Mr. Speaker—I very nearly said Brother Speaker—Mr. Speaker, and brothers on this side of the House, when the Tories attack the trade unions there is only one thing to do—hammer them in the Lobbies.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 80, Noes 207.
1359| Division No. 36] | AYES | [4.3 p.m. |
| Astor, John | Glover, Sir Douglas | Orr-Ewing, Sir lan |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Goodhew, Victor | Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) | Gower, Raymond | Page, Graham (Crosby) |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Grant-Ferris, R. | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
| Body, Richard | Grieve, Percy | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Braine, Bernard | Hastings, Stephen | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey |
| Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col.SirWalter | Heseltine, Michael | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Buck, Antony (Colchester) | Hill, J. E. B. | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Carlisle, Mark | Hirst, Geoffrey | Stainton, Keith |
| Channon, H. P. C. | Holland, Philip | Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart) |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Jennings, J. C. (Burton) | Tilney, John |
| Clegg, Walter | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Cooke, Robert | Kitson, Timothy | Van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Cooper-Key, Sir Neill | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| Costain, A. P. | Longden, Gilbert | Walker, Peter (Worcester) |
| Crouch, David | Loveys, W. H. | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Cunningham, Sir Knox | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Wall, Patrick |
| Dance, James | Maude, Angus | Ward, Dame Irene |
| d'Avigdor Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Mawby, Ray | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Eden, Sir John | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Webster, David |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Emery, Peter | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Eyre, Reginald | Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | |
| Farr, John | Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Foster, Sir John | Neave, Airey | Mr. Ronald Bell and |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Onslow, Cranley | Mr. John Biggs-Davison. |
| NOES | ||
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Concannon, J. D. | Ginsburg, David |
| Allen, Scholefield | Conlan, Bernard | Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) |
| Anderson, Donald | Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Greenwood Rt. Hn. Anthony |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Gregory, Arnold |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Grey, Charles (Durham) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Dalyell, Tam | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) |
| Beaney, Alan | Davidson, James(Aberdeenshire,w.) | Grifflths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly) |
| Bence, Cyril | Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway) | Grimond. Rt. Hn. J. |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | |
| Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) |
| Bessell, Peter | Dempsey, James | Hannan, William |
| Blackburn F. | Dewar, Donald | Harper, Joseph |
| Boardman, H. | Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) |
| Booth Albert | Dickens, James | Haseldine, Norman |
| Boston, Terence | Doig, Peter | Hefter, Eric S. |
| Bottomley Rt Hn Arthur | Dunn, James A. | Henig, Stanley |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret |
| Bradley, Tom | Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Hilton, W. S. |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Eadie, Alex | Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town) |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Ellis, John | Hooley, Frank |
| Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) | English, Michael | Hooson, Emlyn |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Ennals, David | Horner, John |
| Bown,Bob(N 'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) | Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) |
| Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) |
| Buchan, Norman | Foley, Maurice | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Hoy, James |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Ford, Ben | Huckfleld, Leslie |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Fraser, John (Norwood) | Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Angle'tv) |
| Coe, Denis | Gardner, Tony | Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) |
| Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Hunter, Adam | Manuel, Archie | Roebuck, Roy |
| Hynd, John | Mapp, Charles | Rose, Paul |
| Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) | Marks, Kenneth | Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.) |
| Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard | Ryan,John |
| Janner, Sir Barnett | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Shaw, Arnold (llford, S.) |
| Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,s.) | Mendelson, J. J. | Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E. |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Mikardo, lan | Short, Mrs. Rene(W'hampton,N.E.) |
| Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Millan, Bruce | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Slater, Joseph |
| Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) | Small, William |
| Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Molloy, William | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Judd, Frank | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Swingler, Stephen |
| Lawson, George | Morris, John (Aberavon) | Thornton, Ernest |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Moyle, Roland | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Lestor, Miss Joan | Murray, Albert | Tinn, James |
| Lever, Harold (Cheetham) | Neal, Harold | Urwin, T. W. |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Newens, Stan | Varley, Eric G. |
| Lipton, Marcus | Ogden, Eric | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Lomas, Kenneth | orme,Stanley | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Luard, Evan | Oswald, Thomas | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Lubbock, Eric | ||
| Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) | Wallace, George |
| Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Owen, Will (Morpeth) | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Palmer, Arthur | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) |
| McCann, John | Pannen, Rt. Hn. Charles | Wellbeloved, James |
| MacColl, James | Pardoe, John | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| MacDermot, Niall | Park, Trevor | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Macdonald, A. H. | Parker, John (Dagenham) | Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.) |
| McKay, Mrs. Margaret | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) | Winnick, David |
| Mackenzie,Alasdair(Ross&Crom'ty) | Pavitt, Laurence | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Mackie, John | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Maclennan, Robert | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) | Woof, Robert |
| MoMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C) | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) | Yates, Victor |
| McNamara, J. Kevin | Price, William (Rugby) | |
| MacPherson, Malcolm | Probert, Arthur | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Rankin, John | Mr. E. S. Bishop and. |
| Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Rees, Merlyn | Mr. Michael McGuire |
Question put and agreed to.