§ 23. Mr. Wrightasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is proposing to take in order to prepare a report on Scottish trade statistics similar to the Catto Report of 1952.
§ Dr. Dickson MabonIt is not practicable for the reasons given in the Catto Report itself, to prepare comprehenseive trade statistics for Scotland, although records of overseas trade through Scottish ports are now published in the Digest of Scottish Statistics.
§ Mr. WrightDoes the Minister of State fully realise that, since last November or thereabouts when there was a prominent by-election, the relationship of Scotland to the rest of the United Kingdom has been a subject of vast concern in Scotland? Will he reconsider his view on this matter and consider a Commission which might investigate the total financial relationship, including foreign policy and defence, of Scotland to the rest of the United Kingdom?
§ Dr. MabonTo the first part of that supplementary question, the answer is "Yes, Sir". In reply to the second part, I remind the hon. Gentleman that many industrial and commercial firms have establishments on both sides of the Border and could not produce meaningful trade statistics except in relation to their operations as a whole. Whether we should be justified in setting up such a Commission or employing additional civil servants and, at the same time, asking these firms to give us a breakdown of returns, I do not know. At present, I am inclined to think not.
§ Mrs. EwingWas the Minister's point about its not being practicable made with reference to expense? If so, is he aware that the known cost of Catto was only £900 for printing and publishing, and many investigations cost a great deal more than that?
§ Dr. MabonThe hon. Lady has missed the point. It has nothing to do with the actual expense as such. It has to do with the employment of manpower, not just in the public sector but also in relation to the demands which we should have to make on many industrial and commercial firms which have establishments in both Scotland and England in asking them to break down their accounts. This is the trouble we have to face in this matter. I would ask the hon. Lady not to make guesses at these things but to realise how complicated the whole matter is.
§ Mr. WoodburnIs my hon. Friend aware that an effort to analyse how much of the "Queen Elizabeth II", which is assembled in Scotland, is produced in Scotland and what comes from England and other parts of the United Kingdom would be a fantastic operation to carry out in every firm concerned? It would be ridiculous to waste money on this exercise.
§ Dr. MabonI agree with my right hon. Friend. I should add that the Scottish Council (Development and Industry) does good service for Scotland in giving us estimates of exports from Scotland to overseas markets. But the Council would never pretend that these are exact. They are not official returns, and, moreover, they require a great deal of willingness on the part of firms in Scotland which help in giving the information.
§ Mr. MacArthurThis is a perfectly reasonable request. Is not the Minister aware that there is a good deal of concern in Scotland on this matter and it is quite reasonable to ask that the question be settled once and for all? Even if it is not possible to obtain precise information, would not an approximation be of some value?
§ Dr. MabonI would say "Yes" to the first and second points which the hon. Gentleman makes. As to the third, there would never be any satisfaction in having approximate figures. We must do it properly or not at all. I have explained the immense difficulties in having it done, in the demands it would make on the Government and—I emphasise this—on private industry, too.
§ Miss HerbisonI appreciate the great difficulties in carrying out such a survey, but will my hon. Friend give further thought to it? Scottish people like the truth, and there are so many misleading statements on this subject made in Scotland. Would it not be a good thing if we had the truth?