HC Deb 30 January 1968 vol 757 cc1243-50

11.34 p.m.

Sir Eric Errington (Aldershot)

I am glad that the Minister of State is to reply to this short debate, because he knows the Seychelles very well. More than that, he knows the surrounding seas, because he was nearly drowned in them. I would add that, with that decency which one would expect from him, he rescued a member of my party on that occasion.

I am disturbed to find an increase in the Supplementary Estimate relating to the Seychelles of 100 per cent., which is substantial bearing in mind that there are only about 20,000 inhabitants. There are 92 islands, about a third of which are inhabited and I do not know why the administration should have increased so substantially as to require this Supplementary Estimate.

Various things have been happening in the Seychelles and although I have tried to piece events together, I still do not know what portion of the extra administration is in respect of this Estimate. One is the British Indian Ocean Territories, which have gained three islands from the Seychelles. The circumstances under which they have gained them and whether they continue to be administered by the Seychelles is not known to me. Such documents as I have unearthed do not clarify the position. I noticed in The Times the other day that the Cousin Island has a wonderful stock of flora and fauna, but I do not know whether that has added anything to the costs set out in the Estimate.

When I was in the Seychelles two years ago the Island of Mahé was promised an airstrip, which was to be built partially on the sea and partially on coral. That was to involve an expenditure of £6½ million. Has that been started? Has any sum been allocated for its building? Occasionally scraps of information appear in HANSARD in Oral and Written Answers, but they do not give one an idea of the whole picture.

A difficulty arose shortly after I left the Seychelles. Copra, which is the inside of the coconut, is exported in considerable quantities to India, but unfortunately India suffered devaluation. Have any additional costs been incurred by the Seychelles Government as a result of that?

A success story which has probably not resulted in any additional costs is that of tea, which grows at a considerable height in the Seychelles. People came to the Seychelles from Kenya and made a success of planting tea, which must grow above a certain height if it is to achieve a quality to make it successfully saleable and Mahé had this height. Agriculture generally has not met with the same success. A research and development building for agricultural purposes did exist, along with a model farm, but I am afraid that they were not popular with the local inhabitants. It was felt that a stronger effort should be made to popularise this agricultural research establishment and also the model farm. One was told that that would happen, but whether it has happened I have no way of finding out. I have no way of finding what would be the likely cost to the Supplementary Estimate of such developments.

Another matter which may be accounted for by part of this £100,000 may be the administration of aid which was being given to fishing and in particular to refrigeration of fish. One of the saddest sights, I was told, was out of the season when fish were rotting all over the seashore while at other times in season fish were in full spate and it was not possible to use them all. A suggestion was made just before we went there that a special effort should be made to deal with this question because there are many fish which could be dealt with at the flush time if they could be preserved to prevent near starvation. Has any of the money in this Supplementary Estimate been spent on that? According to an Answer in HANSARD, help to be given up to the middle of 1968 amounts to £476,000. There is a substantial set of sums and we do not know how much has been spent and when the programme of expansion is likely to come to an end.

A matter of some importance arises for Sir Colville Deverell's report, which made proposals for constitutional advances. It is not clear when these were approved. Apparently they have been approved because an election was held on the basis of the recommendations as approved, with amendments, by the Secretary of State. I ask whether, in view of the fact that there was a different form of Government, a political Government arising from differences between the Seychelles Democratic Party and the People's United Party, as a result of that electoral conference, any moneys in this Supplementary Estimate have come about because of the change of Government?

These are very attractive islands. They are a long way from us. They are 1,000 miles from Mombasa and 1,700 miles from Bombay. They really do need a tremendous lot of development.

We stayed at the nicest place—except that where Archbishop Makarios stayed, which was, as it were, the piéce de résistance of Mahé. We stayed at the best hotel. We had a hot bath, but instead of the water coming in what for us is the normal way, through pipes, two buxom wenches—and they were charming—came along with a huge iron thing, in which there was very hot water. But that was the only way it could be served to us. Needless to say, we took full advantage of it.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher)

I do not think that that has anything to do with the Supplementary Estimates.

Sir E. Errington

That was—it may be an unfortunate word to use—my peroration, or my near-peroration.

What I was going to say was that these proposals for development are proposals which can do and will do a great deal of good, but I think we ought to know a little more about them. These matters ought not to be raised only in discussion of Supplementary Estimates. We ought to know how these very large sums are being dealt with, what is happening to them; and we ought to take a greater interest than before in these very charming and very far off islands.

11.46 p.m.

Mr. Bernard Braine (Essex, South-East)

May I intervene briefly to make only one point? But perhaps I may first of all say how indebted we all are to my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir E. Errington) for having drawn attention to this dependency, remote as it is, far from us.

There are 90,000 islands, I understand, stretching over an area of 150,000 square miles of the western Indian Ocean. Once Mauritius obtains independence on 12th March next, the Seychelles, as I understand it, will be the last inhabited British dependency in the whole of the vast area stretching from East Africa to South-East Asia, and yet the fact is that, apart from the odd Question asked, I cannot recollect, in all the time I have in the House, any detailed reference to that dependency's affairs, to its government, to the prospects for its development. The last official Colonial Office report on the Seychelles—the Minister of State will correct me if I am wrong—is that for 1963–64, laid before this House in 1965.

Tonight we are limited to consideration of the Supplementary Estimate, the additional provision required for further issues of grant-in-aid and expenses of administration. Exactly what that covers my hon. Friend is seeking to discover. The additional sum of £100,000, considering the many millions we disburse in this country, is small, but, of course, it is relatively large in relation to the government of the Seychelles, and, of course, the revised provision, as my hon. Friend said, is exactly double he present provision, and that is a very sizeable increase.

I would be out of order, and you would very quickly bring me to order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if I sought to raise wider issues, but there is one question I should like to put. I ask it without any knowledge at all. I think the House is entitled to an answer. My hon. Friend referred to an airstrip which it was proposed at one time to lay down. Discussions are going on in Mauritius, further to the south, about our rights over the airfield after independence, but I would not expect the Minister to say anything about that tonight. In the altered circumstances in the Indian Ocean, with the withdrawal of British forces from the Persian Gulf and Singapore, the airfield in the Seychelles could assume considerable additional importance, and it would be interesting to know whether part of the increased provision has any relation to development there.

I hope that the Minister will agree that more than sporadic interest should be shown in the future of a territory for which, as far as we can see, Parliament and the country will be responsible for many years. I make a plea to him—and this is really why I rose—to help us get a full debate on the Seychelles, its problems, future, hopes, aspirations, and how it will fit into the new order of things in the Indian Ocean, at the earliest opportunity.

The fact that it is a small territory, is inhabited by no more than 40,000 to 50,000 people, and is remote from us, does not diminish the sense of care and responsibility that my hon. Friend, the Minister, and I and many of our colleagues feel for its future.

11.52 p.m.

The Minister of State for Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. George Thomas)

The House is grateful to the hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir E. Errington) for bringing to our attention the additional Vote for the Seychelles, and I am grateful to the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine) for the tone in which he addressed himself to the subject.

I was one of two hon. Members in the first Parliamentary delegation ever to visit the Seychelles, about 10 years ago. I went with Mr. Paul Williams, who is no longer with us in the House, though he may one day return. My visit created in me a warm affection for a proud people. They are almost more British than we are. The population started largely through the Royal Navy intercepting slave ships and setting the people free on one little island. They have never forgotten it. They look upon us as the land of the free and feel part of us. There is no call to break away. Because these people lean to us so much, it is only right and proper that the House should give time to considering the extra money asked for. I hope that the hon. Member for Essex, South-East will have his wish and that we shall one day have a fuller debate on the Seychelles.

By a little slip of the tongue the hon. Gentleman referred to 90,000 islands. According to the hon. Member for Aldershot there are 92, and according to my brief there are 89. I am not often guilty of under-statement——

Mr. Braine

I may occasionally be guilty of exaggeration, but I do not multiply things a thousandfold. I thought that I said 90 islands, spread over 150,000 square miles.

Mr. Thomas

The hon. Gentleman said 90,000. We were all agitated on behalf of the hon. Member for Aldershot. It is only 89 according to the Commonwealth Office.

This Supplementary Estimate is easily explained. They are due in part to a revised salary claim award made in the Seychelles during the year. The rate of wages there has been very low for many years and neither side of the House can take much credit for the amount of development aid given to the Seychelles over the years.

From 1945—a date rather like 1066 to me as a turning point in our history—until 1957, the total of development aid given to the Seychelles was less than £300,000. When I was there 10 years ago, the average wage was £3 10s. a month. The poor creatures lived in the main on rice and dried fish—mostly fish. Wages have now been improved for those in the public service and that is a major part of the increased Estimate.

The hon. Gentleman is right to assume that the election there has had a bearing on the expenditure. We all know that elections are expensive items and this was an expense for the Seychelles. In addition, the administrative cost of a more democratic Government has naturally gone upwards. No doubt—and I am bearing in mind yesterday's debate—the number of civil servants has gone up, although I cannot speak with authority on that. However, the public servants are better paid than they were and that is a comfort. Paid chairmen of committees are being appointed out of the eight Members elected and this, too, contributes to the total before this House.

I was asked about the refrigeration scheme. Talks are still going on and tine money has not been raised, but it is hoped that it will be raised from a very good cause whose name will be familiar to all hon. Members.

Sir E. Errington

It is always a case of "jam tomorrow" for the Seychelles. There is a project costing £6 million and one of £500,000, but nothing happens and they get nowhere. Is there any way in which the matter can be dealt with by the administrative gentlemen who are getting higher salaries?

Mr. Thomas

It is not a rich island. It has to look outside for its help. I gather that the hon. Gentleman is asking about the fact that the aid is being increased so much. If he is complaining that we are not giving enough, I have no objection to that.

Mr. Braine

The Minister of State said that one of the reasons for the increased Estimate may well be an increase in the number of civil servants. We should like to know whether any part of the increase in the number of officials bears any relation to the airstrip which was proposed and which, in the altered circumstances of today, we would expect to be laid down.

Mr. Thomas

I do not want to mislead the House—I have watched over the years, those who have done so, from the other side of the House, of course. I think that I had better say at once that there is nothing in the notes that I have gathered together about an increase in the number of civil servants. It was just a passing thought and it could land me in trouble. I do know that there has been an increase in salary.

It is true that Her Majesty's Government have agreed to meet the cost of building a civil airport in the Seychelles to provide a link with the Indian and African mainlands. I hope that work will begin towards the end of this year, and that it will be finished before the end of 1970.

Sir E. Errington

Was it not promised three years ago?

Mr. Thomas

I think that it was talked about three years ago, I would now like to say that a firm commitment was made. My right hon. Friend who is now the Minister of Housing and Local Government, made the promise in 1965, which I have now repeated, giving his exact words. I believe that the airstrip, when it is built, will make all the difference in the world to the Seychelles.

There is not a better place for tourists in the world—except Wales. The climate is attractive, the scenery is unparalleled in its beauty, the water that laps the shores is as pleasant as a warm bath. It is an ideal place. Once the airstrip is there the island will thrive. Apparently exciting things happen there. The hon. Gentleman may be sure that the experience he recounted, of someone else, would be unlikely to take place elsewhere. It is not one of the tourist attractions of Wales.

The Seychelles is full of problems, like Mauritius. It is dependent on copra. Its agricultural husbandry is sadly in need of an overhaul and money has been advanced from C.D. and W. funds to try to improve husbandry. Whoever has the responsibility for tackling the problem —and I do not envy the Governor, who tackles the problem with great courage—deserves the support of this House, and I trust that the Estimates which have been put before the House will be approved.