HC Deb 22 January 1968 vol 757 cc31-5
Speaker

I wish to make a brief statement, which may be helpful to the House, about the procedure for debates on the Second Reading of Consolidated Fund Bills.

As I promised, I have been giving careful thought to the question of the order of speakers and subjects when we have debates on the Second Reading of Consolidated Fund Bills, which I realise are precious occasions for back benchers. The House will remember that the method of "first come first served" led to some confusion last Session—and, in any case, means queuing up outside my office before whatever time we fix for the receiving of names and topics.

I have been consulting hon. Members about this question and I gather that the best and fairest method of determining priorities in these debates would be by ballot. I understand that, by and large, this commends itself to the House.

I would suggest therefore the following: at any time from the announcement, in the Business of the House, of the date of the debate, and up to 10 o'clock in the morning on the day before the debate takes place, hon. Members would hand in to my office their names and the topics that they would wish to raise. The ballot would be for name plus topic, and not just name. Any one hon. Member would hand in only his name and his own topic.

The ballot would take place on the morning of the day before the debate and a list giving the order of names as they came out of the ballot, together with subjects, would be posted, as usual, in the "No" Lobby as early as practicable thereafter. Other hon. Members would be able, as is the present practice, to speak in the debate on the topics which interested them. I think that this would help hon. Members, would avoid ambiguity, and would avoid hon. Members having either to queue at or rush to my office once the date of the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill had been announced.

Perhaps I should take the opportunity of reminding the House that the first Consolidated Fund Bill of the year, which embraces Supplementary Estimates only and not the whole field of administration, is of limited scope and that topics raised in that debate must be within the scope of those Supplementary Estimates.

Sir H. Legge-Bourke

On a point of order. While I feel sure that the House will be grateful for the very careful consideration which you have obviously given to the representations which have been made to you, Mr. Speaker, you mentioned that you had consultations with some hon. Members on this matter. That being so, might I ask if you have considered, in making this statement, this point, which I believe to be of great importance: that when we proceed on the basis of a ballot the element of chance is greatly increased, whereas, in the past, when we have submitted to the Speaker of the day a subject which we thought to be important, the final decision has always rested with the wisdom of the Speaker himself, as well as the order in which subjects are taken?

In the light of the statement which you have made today, can you say whether, in fact, it will still be possible for us to rely on Mr. Speaker's wisdom as to the order in which subjects are to be taken?

Mr. Speaker

I must clear up a misconception in the hon. Gentleman's mind. What we are substituting is merely a 'allot in place of the chronological order f acceptance of subjects. The House has never given Mr. Speaker the power of arranging, in order of priority, the subjects which hon. Members wish to raise on the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill. Indeed, it is a power which Mr. Speaker would not want. I believe that it might derogate from the power of back benchers to raise their own subjects.

What we have to decide is whether we allow the priorities to be fixed by either the method of the order in which the office is notified, which led to confusion the last time, or by pure chance. From what I have gathered as a result of talking to many hon. Members, what I have suggested seems to be the fairest method.

Sir H. Legge-Bourke

Further to my point of order. While thanking you for clarifying the position, Sir, may I ask you to clarify one further point? Does this mean, then, that it will still be possible for a considerable number of hon. Members to ballot for the same subject; that the new procedure will not in any way prevent those hon. Members—who may be very numerous—who are particularly interested in one subject from having time allotted commensurate with the interest that is being shown?

Mr. Speaker

Nothing in the proposals would prevent any hon. Member from seeking to raise any topic which he wished to raise, and which was in order, on Second Reading, even if other hon. Members wished to raise the same topic.

Mr. William Hamilton

On a point of order. I welcome your statement in principle, Mr. Speaker, but, for clarification—since you said that hon. Members had been consulted—can you give some details about how hon. Members were consulted? I was not consulted. I think that it might have been better for the House to have had a short debate and for there to have been a free vote of the House so that the issue could have been decided one way or the other.

Mr. Speaker

I wish to make it perfectly clear, first of all, that there is nothing in what I have said which would prevent the House, if it so decided, from having a free debate on the suggestion I have made. It would, of course, be manifestly impossible for Mr. Speaker, with the best will in the world, to consult every hon. Member; and I regret that I did not consult the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. William Hamilton

Could you say who was consulted, Mr. Speaker?

Mr. Speaker

It would be otiose for Mr. Speaker to attempt to do that.

Mr. Shinwell

Lest there might be some misunderstanding, could you make it clear, Mr. Speaker, that no Privy Councillor was consulted? I was not consulted.

Mr. Speaker

I do not intend to enter into a discussion on the vexed subject of Privy Councillors as distinct from other hon. Members.

Mr. Ronald Bell

On a point of order, and for clarification, is your statement on this a comprehensive one, Mr. Speaker, so that it takes up the whole of the time alloted for the debate on Second Reading, or are you proposing only that the first few hours, or whatever the time might be, should be decided by ballot?

Mr. Speaker

The whole of the debate on Second Reading. It is substituting the ballot for priority fixed by the time an hon. Member went to Mr. Speaker's office. Let me be frank about this. Varying points of view have been put to me and what I have put to the House is what I have gathered to be—to use an unfortunately hackneyed phrase—the consensus of opinion among many hon. Members. It is for the House to decide whether or not to accept what Mr. Speaker has suggested; or to follow, for example, the suggestion of the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) to debate the issue. That is not a matter for Mr. Speaker. It is a matter for Members who are much more powerful than the occupant of the Chair.