HC Deb 27 February 1968 vol 759 cc1225-8
Q3. Mr. Rankin

asked the Prime Minister if the public speech of the Lord President of the Council on 19th January in London dealing with separate local Parliaments for Scotland and Wales represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

Q13. Mr. Elystan Morgan

asked the Prime Minister whether the public speech by the Lord President of the Council in London on 19th January dealing with separate Parliaments for Wales and Scotland represents Government policy.

The Prime Minister

My right hon. Friend did not make a speech, Sir, but was taking part in a television discussion. A transcript of that discussion is in the Library and if hon. Members would care to read it they will find that my right hon. Friend made no statement of policy on these matters.

Mr. Rankin

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a great many people deduced, from what the Lord President said, that the Government were now prepared to look with favour on the creation of a system of government in Scotland within the United Kingdom economy which would give Scotland a closer and more direct control over her own affairs?

The Prime Minister

I am not, of course, responsible for what a large number of people deduced. I am concerned only with what my right hon. Friend said, and he did not say that.

Mr. Morgan

Does not the Prime Minister agree that dynamic feelings of nationhood in Wales and Scotland make the attainment of a Parliament for those respective countries a greater necessity than ever before? Will he give an assurance that he will devise national constitutional policies for those countries in keeping with the majority opinion expressed by their peoples?

The Prime Minister

I am well aware that there are many different views on this question in all the places concerned. My right hon. Friend, in his contribution to a very long television discussion, was only taking note of the strength of feeling that has been expressed.

Mr. Gwynfor Evans

The peoples of Scotland and Wales are nations and no regional or provincial status will be adequate for their needs, rights and duties. They must have a national status which will give them a place in international life.

The Prime Minister

I am well aware of the hon. Gentleman's views on this question.

Mrs. Ewing

Would the Prime Minister care to state on what grounds the Government are unable to adopt the policy of the earlier Labour Party as evidenced by the words of Keir Hardie, James Maxton, Tom Johnston and others too numerous to mention?

The Prime Minister

I should need a lot of notice to be able to do all the research necessary to give the hon. Lady the answer that she wants—and it might still not be the answer she wants. Of course, one of the fundamental questions which we have to consider in all these matters, particularly concerning economic development, is the very great power that exists with regard to the economic regeneration of Scotland and Wales and being able to deploy all the resources of Great Britain as a whole, and, indeed, of the United Kingdom, because of the Northern Ireland problem particularly. But I will certainly undertake, when I get a moment's leisure, to try to do the historical research to which she has kindly drawn my attention.

Mr. Shinwell

Is it not making a somewhat excessive demand on my right hon. Friend to explain away the speech of the Lord President of the Council? Is my right hon. Friend aware that for many years—almost two decades—some of us have been listening to the contradictory, high falutin' and psuedo-intellectual speeches of the Lord President, who is now enjoying a holiday in Bermuda?

The Prime Minister

I will draw the attention of the Leader of the House to the animadversions that have been addressed to me by my right hon. Friend. But on this Question, unlike others on the Order Paper, I am not put in the position of being asked to defend my right hon. Friend's speeches. This is a reference to a very complicated television transcript.

Mr. Russell Johnston

Is the Prime Minister aware that the Leader of the House on that occasion said that he had been considering the matter for a year or two? Will he accelerate the thought processes of the Leader of the House, because it might be of some assistance to the House if time were given to debate the specific proposals of the Federal Government Bill introduced by my right hon. Friend?

The Prime Minister

I think the complaint of my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) is that the thought processes of the Leader of the House are already too fast and there should not be any question of expediting them.

Mr. Woodburn

Is my right hon. Friend aware that for nearly 80 years this matter has been investigated time and time again, and the difficulty has always been to find some way of devolving the institution of Parliament without doing harm economically and socially to the great mass of people in this country?

The Prime Minister

Yes, Sir. That is a very sound historical addition to what has been said this afternoon. I do not think that it was the intention of my right hon. Friend, in the television programme to which I have referred, to act as a catalyst in this general connection.

Mr. Rankin

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Answer to my Question, I shall seek leave to pursue the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

Later—

Mr. Heffer

On a point of order. During Question Time my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) referred to the Lord President of the Council and said that he was on holiday. As I understand it, my right hon. Friend is attending a Parliamentary conference as the representative of the Government, and this cannot be considered a holiday. The Lord President of the Council happens to be discussing items such as Vietnam with American citizens, and hoping to get some sort of agreement with those citizens to help towards a peaceful solution to this problem. Under the circumstances, I ask that the remark be withdrawn.

Mr. Shinwell

In order to satisfy the sensitivity of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool. Walton (Mr. Heffer)—[Interruption] I do not interrupt the Left-wing; I do not see why they should interrupt me—may I say that I had experience of Bermuda a few years ago while attending a similar conference which was quite fruitless. I withdraw the reference to a holiday and hope that my right hon. Friend the Lord President will prolong his holiday as long as possible.[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. We have some very important business ahead of us. I hope that we can get on.

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