(POWERS OF ENTRY, ETC.) (Hansard, 21 February 1968)

§ The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. James Hoy)
I beg to move 466 Amendment No. 4, in page 4, line 4, leave out ' Any constable and any ' and insert ' A '.
It might be for the convenience of the House to take with it Amendments Nos. 6, 7, 8 and 9.
The main purpose is to change the rôle of the police under Part I and make an additional provision relating to the production by an authorised person of his authority to enter upon land. The right hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber) will remember that I promised to look at this point again.
We have been reviewing the role of the police under Part I, and we propose to confine the power of entry for the purpose of checking whether the statutory provisions are being observed to persons authorised by Ministers or local authorities. Accordingly, Amendment No. 4 deletes the reference to the police from Clause 6(1).
It was argued in Committee that an authorised person might already have entered the premises before meeting anyone wishing to see his authority. We accepted that point and, accordingly, have tabled Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 to provide that an authorised person should, when requested, produce his authority when on the land, instead of only before entering it. The specific point made in Committee is met by the second of these two Amendments. The first one makes it clear that the subsection applies to persons authorised to enter upon land for the purposes set out in the two preceding subsections, and it makes a necessary drafting change to allow the subsection to be divided into two paragraphs, (a) and (b).
Finally, I come to the question of support for authorised persons when carrying out their inspection responsibilities under Clause 6. With the removal of inspection and sampling responsibilities from the police, the specific power of entry previously given to them would disappear. Thus, to enable authorised persons to call on police support on the rare occasion that it is thought desirable, it is necessary to make provision for such persons to be accompanied on the land. Amendment No. 8 would achieve this and allow the police to enter upon the land when accompanying the 467 authorised person. I believe that a strictly limited rôle of this kind is justified.
Amendment No. 9 makes a simple change in Clause 6(4) confining the power to take samples of feedingstuffs to authorised Ministry or local authority officers. It completes the changes in Clause 6 as a whole as the result of the proposal to remove inspection and sampling powers from the police.
I hope that the House will agree that these are desirable Amendments. I am grateful to the hon. Gentlemen who suggested them. I hope that I have met their point of view.

§ Mr. Eldon Griffiths
Though not a member of the Committee, may I express my gratitude for the way in which the Minister has taken the points made in Committee by my right hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber) and others.
The Amendment will be much welcomed by the police, with whom, as the hon. Gentleman knows, I have a connection. With the tabling of the Amendments yesterday, I have already received from those representing the police a letter thanking those who have assisted in this fashion and also expressing their satisfaction with the action that the Minister has taken.

§ Mr. Godber
I add my thanks to those of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths). These Amendments, taken together, fully meet the points which we made upstairs.
We felt that a mistake had been made in the drafting of Clause 6 and we advanced our reasons. This series of Amendments meets in detail the specific points we made. For this reason, they are warmly welcomed. We think this is a sensible way in which to make provision. We have always recognised that there may be a case for the police to have to assist possibly, but this would appear to be covered fully by Amendment No. 8. This seems to be the right and proper way in which to deal with it so that authorised persons, as laid down in the Clause, will be the only ones responsible for taking the samples that are envisaged. While the police will give any help that is necessary, this 468 makes the position what we think it should be, and we are glad that the Government have made these Amendments.

§ Mr. Hoy
I beg to move Amendment No. 5, in page 4, line 12, leave out "but only for ascertaining".
Perhaps we might take this Amendment and No. 10 together.
In Committee right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite wished to emphasise that the authorised local authority officer's power of entry in Clause 6 (2) should be exercised solely in connection with feedingstuffs and dietary matters and not with any other aspect of livestock welfare. They accordingly pressed for the insertion of the words "but only for ascertaining", which now appear in line 12. This was accepted.
Although we have heard that these additional words were not necessary, we appreciated the argument made about them. I have since been advised that amending the subsection in this way creates a contrast between it and the preceding subsection which also deals with the powers of entry. The House will agree that a distinction of this kind between two subsections is one we should try to avoid. We have, therefore, considered what might be done to resolve what is, after all, a technical difficulty. We have concluded that the reasonable solution would be to amend Clause 7 (3) so that the powers there conferred on local authorities in England and Wales should be confined to proceedings for such an offence as is mentioned in Clause 6 (2)
If Clause 7 (3) were amended in this way, we should achieve the required emhasis on limitations of local authorities' responsibilities under Part I of the Bill. Without affecting this emphasis, the additional words inserted in Clause 6 (2) in Committee can be removed and thus avoid the present unwanted contrast.
We have, accordingly, Tabled Amendment No. 5 and Amendment No. 10. Amendment No. 5 removes the words added to Clause 6 (2) in Committee. Amendment No. 10 amends Clause 7 (3) so that prosecutions by local authorities in England and Wales are limited to offences relating to feedingstuffs and animal diets which are referred to in
469 Clause 6 (2). This makes it clear that neither local authorities nor their authorised officers would be concerned with animal welfare matters other than feedingstuffs and diets. The situation in Scotland is not affected, as prosecutions there would be instituted by the Procurator Fiscal and not by the local authorities.

§ Mr. Stodart
I will not quarrel with the hon. Gentleman. The effect here is achieved in the different way that he suggests.
One point has occurred to me which I would like to put to him. The person authorised by the local authority is permitted to take such other persons as he thinks are necessary. Would those other persons be subject to the same limitation as lie local authority inspector? That is not entirely clear. It would defeat the whole object if one of the persons that the local authority inspector decided to take was not bound by the same limitation.

§ Mr. Hoy
I can clear that up right away. He would not have any greater power than the person who has been authorised.