HC Deb 19 February 1968 vol 759 cc36-9

The following Questions stood upon the Order Paper:

The Minister of Labour (Mr. R. J. Gunter)

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to give the reply now to Questions Nos. 75 and 78.

I share the hon. Members' concern at the effects of this dispute on the hotel trade in Torquay, and its possible effects elsewhere. My Department has had discussions with officers of the Transport and General Workers' Union and the General and Municipal Workers' Union and has also been in touch with the T.U.C. I shall be seeing representatives of the Transport and General Workers' Union later today, and representatives of the General and Municipal Workers' Union tomorrow morning.

Sir J. Eden

Is not one very serious aspect of this attempt by one union to seize the membership of another the way in which national services are being threatened? Does not the dispute demonstrate clearly the urgent need to reform the law so as to enable the injured party to seek redress in a properly constituted industrial court?

Mr. Gunter

I am inclined to agree with the latter part of that supplementary question. I shall continue my probing with the T.U.C., and I may add that this dispute should not have been put on my plate but should be settled within the machinery of the T.U.C.

Sir F. Bennett

In expressing his concern, will not the right hon. Gentleman agree that serious legal issues are involved which, unless there is a rapid settlement, might become legal in every sense of the word? Will he express particular sympathy for the hoteliers and their guests who are suffering for no good reason at all, who have no dispute with the Transport and General Workers' Union, but are only standing by longstanding agreements with the General and Municipal Workers' Union?

Mr. Gunter

It would be better if I explored these matters tonight.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the worst possible way to deal with trade union difficulties is to take the advice of the Conservative Party?

Mr. R. Carr

I welcome what the right hon. Gentleman said in agreement with the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden) about the need for properly constituted industrial courts, but does not the right hon. Gentleman think it wrong that inter-union warfare of this irresponsible kind should be protected by legislation which was put on the Statute Book to protect trade unions in lawful disputes with employers? Should not the law be changed?

Mr. Gunter

I shall not be drawn into an argument about what is responsible or irresponsible, since I have to meet union representatives tonight. But to me it is a great pity that two great unions, with all their traditions, cannot settle their quarrels without bringing me into it.

Mr. Frank Allaun

While recognising that inter-union disputes are probably the least fortunate kind of union dispute, does not my right hon. Friend think that inter-employer disputes such as that between G.E.C. and A.E.I. cause far more redundancy?

Mr. Gunter

I agree that a lot of fault falls on employers, but I did not know that A.E.I. and G.E.C. were in dispute.

Mr. Mawby

Does not the right hon. Gentleman feel that this whole action is in breach at least of the principles of the Bridlington agreement? Will he try to impress upon the T.U.C. the need to use the disputes machinery to put this matter right, so that a lot of innocent bystanders are not involved?

Mr. Gunter

I would not like to say whether this dispute is in breach of the Bridlington agreement or not. But I understood that there was proper machinery between the unions for settling such disputes.

Mr. Ellis

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is more to this case than an inter-union dispute, and that before the matter blew up many employers in the area were not interested and actively discouraged people employed in these hotels to join unions? Is my right hon. Friend also aware that he should not give way so easily to representations made on one facet of this matter?

Mr. Gunter

I did not know that I had given way to any representations, but I do know that the hotel and catering industry is very badly organised.

Mr. Ellis

That is right.

Mr. Gunter

I do not know how one can blame the employers alone for that. To me, if two great unions like the T. & G.W.U. and G. & M.W.U. cannot come together and ensure that that organisation takes place within the next six months, they are much weaker vessels than I believed. They should act together. They have the joint machinery for doing so and have an agreement to do so. All they have to do is to get their dispute out of the way. I hope that then they will be able to achieve 100 per cent. membership as soon as possible.

Sir D. Walker-Smith

As the right hon. Gentleman quite properly refused to assent to the suggestion put by the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), will he give full and conscientious consideration to the proposals for dealing with these problems made by the Society of Conservative Lawyers if I send him a copy of them?

Mr. Gunter

The right hon. and learned Gentleman need not do so. I have read that publication and there are only parts of it which are any good.

Mr. Edwin Wainwright

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us on this side of the House deplore any conflict which may arise between two large unions and the action involved? But does not he agree that one of the main causes of the problem is the bad working conditions and long hours worked in many hotels?

Mr. Gunter

I entirely agree. I have already said that the workers are badly organised and that conditions should be dealt with. But the worst way to deal with them is for two unions to row about it.

Sir F. Bennett

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. While I fully appreciate that the Minister is doing his best, I must give notice—

Mr. Speaker

Order. In the conventional way, please.

Sir F. Bennett

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.