§ Again considered in Committee.
§ Question again proposed,t the Amendment be made.
§ Mr. BessellI was about to say to the hon. Member that of course Glasgow welcomes this. Glasgow is the one city which will receive compensation. Birmingham will not, and that is why Birmingham does not welcome it. There is a great difference between the position of the two cities.
Mr. BrownThe hon. Gentleman should not presume to talk about Glasgow, because this is the first time that I have heard that it will receive any compensation. [Interruption.] All right. If we get something, we are grateful. But it is certainly not on the cards at present.
I am sorry to use a constituency illustration to deal with the main argument, but it is useful. In my constituency, which is on the periphery of the city, transport services are provided by municipal transport, two companies within the Scottish Omnibus Group, and British Rail. Whatever the argument for the 1079 financial arrangements we are discussing, the case is made for some form of integration or co-ordination. Hon. Members opposite apparently do not dispute that. In that kind of set up it makes sound common business sense for the undertakings to be in one group; that will enable us to provide a better service. At present, Glasgow Corporation is negotiating to hand over the municipal undertaking to the Scottish Omnibus Group, and the idea has received general support in the city. Unlike other cities, Glasgow has no political bias about the handing over of a municipal undertaking to another authority.
Therefore, with or without compensation, Glasgow has taken a decision which, in its opinion, will lead to a better and more efficient transport service. For the life of me, I cannot understand all the spurious opposition to something which, in a city like Glasgow, we have already decided is desirable. The terms of compensation were examined just as in the taking over of gas, electricity, hospitals and other services. The services are still being provided, and that is what matters. We are satisfied that the arrangement will give us not only more local control but more Scottish control over a service which is basic to the community. For these reasons, I am satisfied that the citizens of Glasgow will welcome it, with or without compensation.
§ Mr. W. H. K. Baker (Banff)I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Hugh D. Brown), but I am sure that he will forgive me if I do not follow him up and down Sauchiehall Street. I wish to address my remarks to new Clause 2, which was so ably referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Tavistock (Mr. Michael Heseltine).
I represent a remote constituency, an area suffering from depopulation and, more recently, the threat of railway closure. We are awaiting at the moment an announcement that the loop lines in my constituency will be closed. Tomorrow the Traffic Commissioners are sitting in Keith to hear applications for licensing for alternative bus routes when the lines are closed. In such a rural area as I represent, with a sparse population and long distances between towns and villages, it is essential to have good 1080 communications not only for the local residents but for the school children, and particularly the secondary school children, who have long distances to travel to and from school. This is emphasised by the constant centralisation of secondary education in the larger towns. Although I am speaking of my constituency, this applies to many other constituencies in Scotland.
I am delighted to see on the Government Front Bench the Minister of State, Scottish Office—
Mr. J. T. PriceOn a point of order, Sir Eric. May I inquire whether we are still discussing Amendment No. 5, in Clause 1, page 1, line 11, because I have heard nothing in the last five minutes to do with the Amendment, and it is still going on?
§ The ChairmanAt the moment we are discussing Amendment No. 5 together with new Clause 2. I am bound to say that I was waiting to see whether the hon. Member for Banff (Mr. Baker) was going to apply what he has so far been saying to either the Amendment or the new Clause.
§ Mr. BakerI was about to come to the point, Sir Eric. I was saying that I am delighted to see the Minister of State sitting on the Government Front Bench because he knows a little of the problems that we have to face.
My main point is that I want to know whether we shall see as a result of the acquisition of bus or coach undertakings by the Transport Holding Company an improvement in bus or coach communications in an area such as I represent. I should like to know what improvements the Government visualise as a result of the Bill. If it were not for the fact that buses and coaches were employed by the local education authority in my constituency to take children to and from school, and if it were not for partial subsidising of those routes, the private operators would have to close down. I admit that. But I cannot see that if they are acquired by the Transport Holding Company we shall get more efficient communications. If that were so, I should be prepared to vote against the Amendment and in favour of the Government's proposition. I hope that the Joint Under-Secretary will be able to tell us in categorical terms 1081 exactly what improvements we may hope for in the rural areas.
In the summer when the coaches to which I have referred are not being used to transport children to and from school they cope to a great extent with tourists who come into the county. The coaches are used for sightseeing tours, and the sights are well worth seeing. The scenery in Upper Banffshire and the Cairngorms is well worth seeing. When we can get more tourists there we shall be better off in the remote areas. I should like to know whether, if these coaches are nationalised, we shall get better facilities for tourism.
The Minister of State appears to nod his head. I should like to hear from him or his hon. Friend how the position will be improved. These buses are operated by small private operators. When they are nationalised, will we see a sign outside the depot, "See Banffshire in Barbara's buses"? Will that attract more tourists? Do not forget the repercussions throughout the country on more and better tourism. Will we see more tourists flocking into the County of Banff as a consequence? I wish I could believe that it was true. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will tell us what benefits will accrue to such areas as my constituency.
§ The ChairmanMr. Mapp.
§ Mr. Ted Leadbitter (The Hartlepools)On a point of order, Sir Eric. During his latter remarks on new Clause 2, the hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Michael Heseltine) made a statement challenging the Government Front Bench and comparing the nature of the acquisition of B.E.T. with an anomaly, as he tried to describe it, in the method adopted in Standing Committee F concerning the P.T.A.s. The hon. Member said that the A.M.C.—he used the word "Council" rather than "Corporation"—was totally against it.
For the record—and this is the nature of my point of order, Sir Eric—
§ The ChairmanOrder. I do not think that the hon. Member is rising to a point of order. He may be indicating something that he wants to say in debate, but he should say it during the course of debate when he catches my eye.
§ Mr. LeadbitterWith respect, Sir Eric, this is a point of order. The minutes of the general purposes committee—
§ The ChairmanOrder. It is not a point of order to make a correction in what other hon. Members have said. The hon. Member can make a speech about it later.
§ Mr. LeadbitterI will make the point later, Sir Eric.
§ Mr. Charles Mapp (Oldham, East)I was rather pleased with the contribution of the hon. Member for Banff (Mr. Baker). Behind all the funny words that we have heard from the Opposition Front Bench, the hon. Member has discerned that the Clause seeks to prevent the Transport Holding Company from buying, in whatever set of circumstances may be the cause, some of the local bus companies which may fail for all sorts of legitimate reasons. If they fail—and fail they do, unfortunately—there would be no undertaking with a public conscience such as the Transport Holding Company which would be in a position to buy them up and provide the kind of service that the hon. Member had in mind. That was the main reason why I would object to the new Clause.
The combined Liberal and Tory Parties on the benches opposite have not done their homework on the new Clause. What they are doing in 1968 is disowning the work of the right hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) in 1962. He it was who put together the 1962 Act, when, for the first time, we had from the party opposite, who then occupied this side of the House, the Transport Holding Company. As we know, the then Tory Government within their Act gave the Transport Holding Company financial facilities with which to do its work. In those days, no one in the party opposite took exception to the Transport Holding Company having such powers of finance to do its job. In the meantime, the Transport Holding Company has in various ways been doing exactly that.
The Tory Party, in failing to do their homework, say, in effect, in the new Clause that the Transport Holding Company must not acquire any further bus or coach undertakings except from British Electric Traction. I wonder whether hon. Gentlemen opposite, particularly the 1083 Front Bench, have looked at the Bill, especially Clause 1(2). It will be seen that the other side has accepted the implications of the work of the right hon. Member for Wallasey in the early days. This subsection says that there appears to have been some doubt recently as to whether the Transport Holding Company should have been making these acquisitions over a period of time.
10.15 p.m.
The only Amendment in the combined names of Tory and Liberal Members is to the effect that the company can do it in future but not in a retrospective sense. In principle the party opposite is disowning the work of its own Government of 1962 which clothed the Transport Holding Company with the necessary financial flexibility to do its job. In 1968 it is conducting a campaign up and down the country. The hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Michael Heseltine) has been in Manchester learning about things there. He did not know where the place was, I do not suppose, until a few months ago.
He would not know who these people were, but I know these authorities in the Manchester area. He will be very happy because, perhaps for a time, we have a Tory chairman of Manchester City Council. This is not the case in many of the other local authorities in the area. He asked whether there was any evidence of any professional opinion on this point. I happened to be addressing a body of 30 professional and technical staff employed by London Underground recently. This perhaps would not be accepted by hon. Members opposite as being a body representing people knowing anything about this subject. We were discussing the technicalities of running overhead and underground railways systems. These people did not share all these professional views that I have heard tonight from the other side. The fact is that there is a mass canvass going on, which has so far not got off the ground. It is unlikely to get off the ground and it is a pity, for the sake of the party opposite, that it will not do so.
§ Mr. LeadbitterI only want to make one point. I repeat that the hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Michael Heseltine) in making the general comparison between 1084 the method of acquisition here of B.E.T. and referring to the matters upstairs in Part II of the Transport Bill challenged our Front Bench, saying that there was not one scrap of evidence to support what was being done. He later said that the A.M.C. was totally against this. I have before me the Minutes of the General Purposes Committee of the A.M.C. dated January, 1968, from the reports of Committees of the Association of Municipal Corporations. Following a suggestion made by the Passenger Transport Association that steps should be taken to indicate dissent to the Minister about her proposals the Minute says:
Our attitude remains that, fundamentally, the establishment of passenger transport authorities should await the reorganisation of local government…".The first point is that it is not against the P.T.A.s. Further down this is what the Minute says:Acknowledging, however, that firm steps need urgently to be taken to deal with the traffic problems of the conurbations, we consider that the Association would not wish to oppose the setting up of passenger transport authorities as bodies representative of local authorities and transport operators…".That is the evidence. What I am suggesting here, in bringing this matter to the attention of the House, is that the hon. Member, although not intentionally, has succeeded in misleading the Committee, because there was evidence in support of the Minister's case.
§ Mr. Michael HeseltineI was mentioning that the A.M.C. is totally against some aspects of the P.T.A. proposals. I referred specifically to the operating concept of the P.T.A. proposals. I am grateful to the hon. Member for The Hartlepools (Mr. Leadbitter) who has specific problems with this Bill. I realise that the Labour-controlled council in his constituency has sent him to the Ministry of Transport to ask for Amendments to the Bill. I appreciate that he has problems.
I would add slightly to the knowledge of the Committee by quoting even more from the particular report which the hon. Gentleman was waving. It says, that is the A.M.C.
…has indicated opposition to the proposals for the immediate transfer of local authority undertakings to the P.T.A.s. It has been contended that they should remain with existing operators…".1085 The Amendment is about ownership of buses. We all agree that some sort of co-ordinating Passenger Transport Authority is a good thing. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) set up the Land Use Transportation Study in the West Midlands, the forerunner of all this centralisation and co-ordination within the great conurbations, as hon. Members opposite know. We are not talking about the co-ordinating function of P.T.A.s. We are talking about ownership, and it is ownership that the A.M.C. has specifically come out against. The hon. Member for The Hartlepools has the quotation and we mentioned it upstairs in Standing Committee F. I in no way misled the Committee. I quoted exactly the views of the A.M.C. and the hon. Gentleman knows it. If he wants further evidence of what they are let him go back to The Hartlepools and ask his own council.
§ Mr. LeadbitterI have two points. Earlier, on a point of order, when I indicated I was going to refer to the minutes of the A.M.C., the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker), the chief spokesman on the Bill upstairs, rushed out to get his own quotation from the minutes of the meeting last week. What he did not say upstairs and what the hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Michael Heseltine) has not said here, is that that quotation is taken from a passage in the minutes which refers to a period in July last year. The minute I have read deals with the consequent considerations of the A.M.C.
On the question of The Hartlepools constituency—
§ Mr. Michael Heseltine rose—
§ Mr. LeadbitterI will give way when I have dealt with the hon. Gentleman's two points. Concerning The Hartlepools constituency, it is the opinion of the Council that it should support the Bill, and it supports Part II. However, because it is a Bill involving an operating changing the complex of transport, it is proper that a responsible authority should seek to amend it in order to improve it. That is what I am seeking to do and I hope I have the co-operation of the Minister.
§ Mr. CarmichaelAgain, we have had a long discussion on these Amendments. I should like to start by referring to the 1086 quotations made by the hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Michael Heseltine) referring to what I had said on Second Reading on 16th January. It is true that I said:
I should like to be able to give a 'yes' or 'no' answer",but the hon. Member was less than fair. I am sure he did not realise, but had he looked back to the answer I gave to him and to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) he would have seen that I made it clear that Glasgow would not be given any consideration greater than that of any other area which would be taken in on the basis of the passenger transport authority. I said:Glasgow will not have any special edge on anywhere else. It is important to realise that the Company and Glasgow Corporation are also aware of the Transport Bill and what it involves. It would do them less than justice to suggest otherwise."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th January 1968; Vol. 756, c. 1733.]That is a fuller quotation of what I said, and I stand by it with regard to Amendment No. 5. Glasgow will be in the same position as any other local authority in a P.T.A.The real problem is that hon. Gentlemen opposite do not understand, or refuse to try to understand, the whole question of what is a P.T.A. I have visited many areas and discussed the matter with local authority representatives. I am not particularly persuasive, but, by the time I left, having given them the facts, they were beginning to realise that a P.T.A. would not be a creature of Whitehall, as they had been told by hon. Gentlemen opposite.
§ Mr. Michael HeseltineI have followed the hon. Gentleman's journeyings around the country. Will he tell us which local authorities he visited, and whether they are now convinced that he has something worth while to offer them?
§ Mr. CarmichaelI am not suggesting that local authorities are now convinced. I am suggesting that following my visits they have sloughed off the propaganda which has been poured into them, and the doctrinaire attitude which had been inculcated in them by hon. Gentlemen opposite. There is no question but that many local authorities have begun to realise that my right hon. Friend intends to create an organisation which will give 1087 them the assets of the transport undertakings in their areas, and that such organisations will have only one-seventh of their membership contributed to, or nominated by, the Minister. This is not new in local authority areas
§ Mr. BessellOn a point of order. Sir Barnett, are we discussing the Transport Holding Company, and the Bill relating to it, or are we now in session in Standing Committee F, with a lot of new Members? I can find no reference to P.T.A.s in the Bill.
§ The Temporary Chairman (Sir Barnett Janner)I think that the Minister is in order.
§ Mr. CarmichaelI think that I am entitled to reply to the points which have been raised. The question of P.T.A.s was raised during the debate. In fact, the hon. Member for Tavistock raised it during one of the longest interventions that I have ever heard in the House. I therefore feel that it is reasonable for me to clear up this point in relation to Amendment No. 5 as it would affect Glasgow. We are discussing the effect of the Bill as against the effect of setting up P.T.A.s, and what I said on the 16th January is reasonable from Glasgow's point of view.
There is a point about which I must be honest. I spoke about P.T.A.s and their relationship with the T.H.C., and the acquisition of assets within areas designated as such. I stand by what I said. Outside the P.T.A. areas, the T.H.C. may be in a different position. This was referred to by one of my hon. Friends who referred to bus companies in rural areas being asked to be taken over by the T.H.C. because they can no longer provide services in an area such as that mentioned by the hon. Member for Banff (Mr. Baker).
§ In certain areas, local authorities with only a few buses are finding things difficult. They have either done so or are thinking of entering into negotiations with the T.H.C. with a view to acquisition. I am referring to local authorities which number their buses in tens, and which are never likely to be involved in a P.T.A.
§ On the questions raised by the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, North (Mr. R. W. Elliott), I have visited Newcastle; whether or not there will be a subvention on the rates is a matter for the representatives of the local authority. If they decide that the fares could be increased instead—because these will not be subject to the Traffic Commissioners—this is up to them. The choice whether to carry any burdens of transport on the fares or whether to spread it over the community as a whole will be theirs. It is, nevertheless, finally a decision of the Passenger Transport Authority, which will be very heavily representative of the municipality.
§ The hon. Member for Banff spoke on new Clause No. 2. The Bill which is being discussed in Standing Committee F upstairs is absolutely essential if an area like Banff is in the future to be given a good transport service. Provision for rural services is a real break-through for an area like this, and knowing he is a very fair-minded man, I hope that he will consider the arguments put forward by some of my hon. Friends and agree that on this occasion he should vote with the Government in rejecting the Amendment.
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 120, Noes 202.
1091| Division No. 48.] | AYES | [10.30 p.m. |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Buck, Antony (Colchester) | Elliott, R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) |
| Baker, W. H. K. | Burden, F. A. | Emery, Peter |
| Balniel, Lord | Carlisle, Mark | Errington, Sir Eric |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Got. & Fhm) | Cary, Sir Robert | Eyre, Reginald |
| Bessell, Peter | Clark, Henry | Fortescue, Tim |
| Biffen, John | Clegg, Walter | Foster, Sir John |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Corfield, F. V. | Cilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) |
| Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel | Costain, A. P. | Glover, Sir Douglas |
| Boardman, Tom | Cunningham, Sir Knox | Glyn, Sir Richard |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Dalkelth, Earl of | Goodhart, Philip |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Dance, James | Goodhew, Victor |
| Brewis, John | Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) | Gower, Raymond |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Grant-Ferris, R. |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Eden, Sir John | Grant, Anthony |
| Gresham Cooke, R. | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Grieve, Percy | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Royle, Anthony |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Montgomery, Fergus | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Gurden, Harold | More, Jasper | Sharpies, Richard |
| Harris, Reader (Heston) | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whltby) |
| Harrison, Brian (Maldon) | Monro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Silvester, Frederick |
| Hastings, Stephen | Murton, Oscar | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Hay, John | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Smith, John |
| Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Heseltine, Michael | Nott, John | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon) |
| Hill, J. E. B. | Onslow, Craniey | Summers, Sir Spencer |
| Holland, Phllip | Osborn, John (Hallam) | Teeling, Sir William |
| Howell, David (Guildford) | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Hunt, John | Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Tilney, John |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Pardoe, John | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Iremonger, T. L. | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) | Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| Johnston, Bussell (Inverness) | Peel, John | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Kimball, Marcus | Percival, Ian | Walker, Peter (Worcester) |
| Knight, Mrs. Jill | Pink, R. Bonner | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) | Pounder, Rafton | Webster, David |
| Lubbock, Eric | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Prior, J. M. L. | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| McMastor, Stanley | Raimden, Rt. Hn. James | Worsley, Marcus |
| Maginnis, John E. | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David | |
| Maude, Angus | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mawby, Ray | Ridsdale, Julian | Mr. Bernard Weatherill and |
| Mr. Hector Monro. | ||
| NOES | ||
| Albu. Austen | Dunn, James A. | Kenyon, Clifford |
| Allaun, Frank (Salfcrd, E.) | Dunnett, Jack | Kerr, Russell (Feltham) |
| Allen, Scholefield | Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth, (Exeter) | Lawson, George |
| Armstrong. Ernest | Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Atlins, Ronald (Perston, N.) | Edwards, Rt. Hn. Ness (Caerphilly) | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Ellis, John | Lee, John (Reading) |
| Barnett. Joel | English, Michael | Lestor, Miss Joan |
| Baxter, William | Ensor, David | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Benn, Rt. Hn, Anthony Wedgwood | Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) | Loughlin, Charles |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Faulds, Andrew | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) |
| Binns, John | Fernyhough, E. | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson |
| Bishop, E. S. | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | McBride, Neil |
| Blackburn, F. | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | McCann, John |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | MacColl, James |
| Boardman, H. | Fowler, Gerty | MacDermot, Niall |
| Booth, Albert | Fraser, John (Norwood) | McGuire, Michael |
| Boyden, James | Galpern, Sir Myer | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Gardner, Tony | Mackie, John |
| Bray. Dr. Jeremy | Garrett, W. E. | Mackintosh, John p. |
| Brooks, Edwin | Gourlay, Harry | Maclerman, Robert |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Brown,Bob(N'e'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Gregory, Arnold | MacPherson, Malcolm |
| Brown, Hugh D. (C'gow, Provan) | Grey, Charles (Durham) | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) |
| Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Mal1alieu,J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.) |
| Buchan, Norman | Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly) | Manuel, Archie |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Mapp, Charles |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Hamling, William | Marks, Kenneth |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Hannan, William | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Carmichael, Neil | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mendelson, J. J. |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Hart, Mrs. Judith | Millan, Bruce |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Hazell, Bert | Milne, Edward (Blyth) |
| Chapman, Donald | Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) |
| Coe, Denis | Heffer, Eric S. | Moonman, Eric |
| Coleman, Donald | Henig, Stanley | Morris, Alfred (Whthenshawe) |
| Concarmon, J. D. | Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Hooley, Frank | Murray, Albert |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Neal, Harold |
| Cronin, John | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Newens, Stan |
| Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon) |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alica | Hoy, James | Norwood, Christopher |
| Dalyell, Tam | HuckfieHd, Leslie | Oakes, Gordon |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Ogden, Eric |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Hynd, John | O'Malley, Brian |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Irvine, Sir Arthur | Oram, Albert E. |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) | Orbach, Maurice |
| de Freitiis, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Orme, Stanley |
| Dell, Edmund | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Oswald, Thomas |
| Dempsey, James | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) |
| Dewar, Donald | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Owen, Will (Morpeth) |
| Dickens, James | Jones,Rt.Htt.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.) | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) |
| Dobson, Ray | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Paget, R. T. |
| Doig, Piter | Judd, Frank | Pentland, Norman |
| Parry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptfond) | Watklns, David (Consett) |
| Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) | Wellbeioved, James |
| Price, Thomas (Weathoughton) | Silverman, Julius (Aston) | Wells, William (Waisall, N.) |
| Probert, Arthur | Skeffington, Arthur | Whltaker, Ben |
| Reea, Merlyn | Slater, Joseph | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Richard, Ivor | Spriggs, Leslie | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) |
| Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Swingler, Stephen | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) | Taverne, Dick | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Robertson, John (Paisley) | Thornton, Ernest | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.) | Tinn, James | Woof, Robert |
| Rodgers, William (Stockton) | Urwin, T. W. | Yates, Victor |
| Roebuck, Roy | Varley, Eric G. | |
| Rose, Paul | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Ross, Rt. Hn. William | Walden, Brian (All Saints) | Mr. Joseph Harper and |
| Shaw, Arnold (llford, S.) | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) | Mr. Alan Fitch. |
| Shore, Peter (Stepney) | Wallace, George |
§ Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
1092§ Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.