HC Deb 12 February 1968 vol 758 cc1093-101

No moneys provided by this Act shall be employed to acquire road haulage undertakings.—[Mr. Webster.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Webster

I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.

I will be brief, because the Government supporters are wilting and it is practically impossible to get a logical answer from the Government Front Bench because both hon. Gentlemen are exhausted and punchdrunk.

When the Prime Minister went to Washington, he said that, if the Government did not nationalise road haulage this time, they would take the lid off the already nationalised B.R.S. The Minister of State said that the taking over would be on commercial terms, by which he meant the doubling of excise duty, three increases of fuel tax, the removal of investment grants, the imposition of special alterations which loaded the thing against the private haulier, the possibility of such a special authorisation, if they got it, being revoked, and the addition of an extra£8 for an eighttonner, plus the abnormal road tax. We will do nothing to help the Government take over road haulage on those loaded terms, which is the reason for the Clause.

Mr. Swingler

I am not sure who is wilting, but I have already answered this in debates on other Amendments, by saying that we favour the expansion of public enterprise in road haulage and the other diversified activities of the T.H.C. I think that we should say no more, but put the matter to the vote.

Mr. Bessell

I support the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Webster). We have received no concession or indication from the Government today that they are prepared even to consider the reasonable and reasoned Amendments of this side. This disturbs me, because, whenever a Government bring in a large Bill and a connected smaller one—this Bill is a corollary to the Transport Bill—they normally undertake at least to consider some of the Amendments. The Government have brought down an iron curtain which is impossible to penetrate even to the extent of their undertaking to consider our arguments. In circumstances such as these, I trust that the Opposition will press the Amendment to a Division.

Question put, That the Clause be read a Second time:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 115, Noes 197.

Division No. 49.] AYES [10.45>m.
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstaad) Emery, Peter Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) Errington, Sir Eric Lubbock, Eric
Baker, W. H. K. Eyte, Reginald Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Balniel, Lord Fortescue, Tim McMaster, Stanley
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) Foster, Sir John Maginnis, John E.
Bessell, Peter Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Maude, Angus
Biffen, John Glover, Sir Douglas Mawby, Ray
Biggs-Davison, John Glyn, Sir Richard Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel Goodhew, Victor Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Boardman, Tom Gower, Raymond Montgomery, Fergus
Bossom, Sir Clive Grant, Anthony More, Jasper
Boyd-Carpenur, Rt. Hn. John Grant-Ferris, R. Morgan, Gcralnt (Denbigh)
Bretwis, John Gresham Cooke, R. Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Brinton, Sir Tatton Grieve, Percy Murton, Oscar
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Gurden, Harold Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Buck, Antony (Colchester) Harris, Reader (Hetton) Nott, John
Burden, F. A. Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Onslow, Cranley
Carlisle, Mark Hastings, Stephen Osborn, John (Hallam)
Cary, Sir Robert Hay, John Page, Graham (Crosby)
Clark, Henry Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel Pardoe, John
Clegg, Walter Heseltine, Michael Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)
Corfield, F. V. Hill, J. E. B. Percival, Ian
Costain, A. P. Holland, Philip Pink, R. Bonner
Dalkith, Earl of Howell, David (Cuildford) Pounder, Rafton
Dance, James Hunt, John PoweH, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) Hutchison, Michael Clark Prior, J. M. L.
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) Iremonger, T. L. Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Eden, Sir John Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Kimball, Marcus Ridsdale, Julian
Elliott,R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) Knight, Mrs. Jill Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Royle, Anthony Summers, Sir Spencer Webster, David
Russell, Sir Ronald Teeling, Sir William Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Sharples, Richard Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) Tilney, John Worsley, Marcus
Silvester, Sir George Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Sinclair, Sir George Vaughan.Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Smith, John Vickers, Dame Joan Mr. Bernard Weatherill and
Steel, David (Roxburgh) Walker, Peter (Worcester) Mr. Hector Monro.
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon) Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
NOES
Albu, Austen Fraser, John (Norwood) Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Allaun, Frank (Sailord, E.) Galpern, Sir Myer Mitchell, R. c. (S'th'pton, Test)
Allen, Scholefield Gardner, Tony Moonman, Eric
Armstrong, Ernest Garrett, W. E. Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) Gourlay, Harry Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony Murray, Albert
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Gregory, Arnold Neal, Harold
Barnett, Joel Grey, Charles (Durham) Newens, Stan
Baxter, William Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly) Norwood, Christopher
Bidwell, Sydney Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Oakes, Gordon
Binns, John Hamling, William Ogden, Eric
Bishop, E. S. Hannan, William O'Malley, Brian
Blackburn, F. Harper, Joseph Oram, Albert E.
Blgnkinsop, Arthur Harrison, Walter (Wakefleld) Orbach, Maurice
Boardman, H. Hart, Mrs. Judith Orme, Stanley
Booth, Albert Hazell, Bert Oswald, Thomas
Boyden, James Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. Heffer, Eric S. Owen, Will (Morpeth)
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Henig, Stanley Page, Derek (King's Lynn)
Brooks, Edwin Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret Paget, R. T.
Brown, Hugh D. (C'gow, Provan) Hooley, Frank Pentland, Norman
Brown,Bob(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.) Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)
Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
Buchan, Norman Hoy, James Probert, Arthur
Buchanan, Richard (C'gow, Sp'burn) Huckfield, Leslie Rees, Merlyn
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) Richard, Ivor
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Hynd, John Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Carmichael, Neil Irvine, Sir Arthur Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)
Carter-Jones, Lewis Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) Robertson, John (Paisley)
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)
Coe, Denis Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Coleman, Donald Jones, Dan (Burnley) Roebuck, Roy
Concannon, J. D. Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn (W.Ham.S.) Rose, Paul
Conlan, Bernard Jorres, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) Ross, Rt. Hn. William
Crawshaw, Richard Judd. Frank Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)
Cronin, John Kenyon, Clifford Shore, Peter (Stepney)
Crosstnan, Rt. Hn. Richard Kerr, Russell (Feltham) Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Cullen, Mrs. Alice Lawson, George Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)
Dalyell, Tam Leadbitter, Ted Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) Skeffington, Arthur
Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock) Slater, Joseph
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Lee, John (Reading) Spriggs, Leslie
Davies, Harold (Leek) Lestor, Miss Joan Swingler, Stephen
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Taverne, Dick
Dell, Edmund Loughlin, Charles Thornton, Ernest
Dempsey, James Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Tinn, James
Dewar, Donald Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Urwin, T. W.
Dickens, James McBride, Neil Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Dobson, Ray McCann, John Walden, Brian (All Saints)
Doig, Peter Maccoll, James Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Dunn, James A. MacDermot, Niall Wallace, George
Dunnett, Jack McGuire, Michael Watkins, David (Consett)
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth, (Exeter) Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Wellbeloved, James
Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) Mackie, John Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Edwards, Rt. Hn. Ness (Caerphilly) Mackintosh, John P. Whitaker, Ben
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Maclerman, Robert Wilkins, W. A.
Ellis, John McNamara, J. Kevin Williams, Alan Lee (Homchureh)
English, Michael MacPherson, Malcolm Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Ensor, David Mahon, Peter (Preston, S) Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Faulds, Andrew Mallalieu,J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.) Woof, Robert
Fernyhough, E. Manuel, Archie Yates, Victor
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Mapp, Charles
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Marks, Kenneth TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Mr. Ioan Evans and
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Mendelaon, J. J. Mr. Eric G. Varley.
Fowler, Gerry Millan, Bruce

Bill reported, without Amendment.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

10.55 p.m.

Sir Harmar Nicholls

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think that this is the first time under the new rules that a Motion has appeared on the Order Paper on a Third Reading, That the Question be not put forthwith. To speed proceedings, may I say that I hope that if such a Motion appears again on the Order Paper it will not be ignored. On this occasion it may be right not to extend the proceedings after the debate has gone on fully in Committee, but under the new rules, if we put down a Motion to have a Bill discussed on Third Reading, we should examine the Bill further in the actual form in which it leaves the Committee.

Mr. Speaker

I am sure that the House will note, and the hon. Member's side of the House will especially note, what the hon. Member has said.

10.56 p.m.

Mr. Heseltine

It is interesting that no member of the Cabinet has been present to listen to the debate until the last few minutes. If I were a member of the Cabinet, and we were asked to extend public borrowing by £70 million at a time such as this in the economic circumstances of the country, I would not have come to the House for this debate, but it is extraordinary that we should not have had a member of the Cabinet present until this time and that the Minister of Transport has not been present throughout Committee stage.

It is also extraordinary that, despite most detailed probing of Ministers, they have not given a single indication of the

facts about Thos. Cook. This was a remarkable opportunity thrown away by hon. Members opposite to prove in detail the triumphs of the Transport Holding Company to which they have referred. They could have put before the House in great detail all the successes of which we have heard so much, but all they have been content to do has been to assert that there have been successes and not to justify the statement by facts.

We are extending the public sector by £70 million. The Bill reveals clearly the real motives behind the Prime Minister's continual promise to reduce public expenditure. The Bill reveals that his promise is no more than one more politically expedient promise, made today and forgotten tomorrow.

10.58 p.m.

Mr. Swingler

I greatly regret that right up to the last stages of the Bill Opposition spokesmen have been inaccurate. Some of my right hon. Friends in the Cabinet have been present in the course of the proceedings, including my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.

The Opposition have had a very full opportunity to attack the Bill up to the last minute. We come back to the last point which divides the House. It is that we are in favour of the extension of public enterprise in transport. I am glad that this Bill provides a means of extending public enterprise in transport which the country very much needs, and I heartily commend it to the House.

Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—

The House divided: Ayes 194, Noes 116.

Division No. 50.] AYES [10.59 p.m.
Albu, Austen Bray. Dr. Jeremy Dalyell, Tam
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Brooks, Edwin Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)
Allen, Scholefield Brown, Bob(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.) Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)
Armstrong, Ernest Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch &F'bury) Davies, Harold (Leek)
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Buchan, Norman de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey
Bagier, Gordon A. T Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Dell, Edmund
Barnett, Joel Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Dempsey, James
Baxter, William Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Dewar, Donald
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Carmichael, Neil Dickens, James
Bidwell, Sydney Carter-Jones, Lewis Dobson, Ray
Binns, John Coe, Denis Doig, Peter
Bishop, E S Coleman, Donald Dunn, James A
Blackburn, F Concannon, J. D Dunnett, Jack
Blenkinsop, Arthur Conian, Bernard Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth, (Exeter)
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Crawehaw, Richard Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th& C'b'e)
Booth, Albert Cronin, John Edwards, Rt. Hn. Ness (Caerphilly)
Boyden, James Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Braddoch, Mrs. E. M. Cullen, Mrs.. Alice Ellis, John
English, Michael Leadbitter, Ted Paget, R. T.
En[...]or, David Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) Pentland, Norman
Faulds, Andrew Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock) Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)
Fernyhough, E Lee, John (Reading) Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Lestor, Miss Joan Probert, Arthur
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Rees, Merlyn
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Loughlin, Charles Richard, Ivor
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Fowler, Gerry Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire. S.)
Fraser, John (Norwood) McBride, Neil Robertson, John (Paisley)
Galpern, Sir Myer McCarm, John Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.)
Gardner, Tony MacColl, James Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Gourlay, Harry MacDermot, Niall Roebuck, Roy
Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony McGuire, Michael Rose, Paul
Gregory, Arnold Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Ross, Rt. Hn. William
Grey, Charles (Durham) Mackie, John Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Mackintosh, John P Shore, Peter (Stepney)
Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Maclennan, Robert Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Hamling, William McNamara, J. Kevin Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)
Hannan, William MacPherson, Malcolm Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Harper, Joseph Mahon, Peter (Preston, S) Skeffington, Arthur
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfield, E.) Slater, Joseph
Hart, Mrs. Judith Manuel, Archie Spriggs, Leslie
Hattersley, Roy Mapp, Charles Swingler, Stephen
Hazell, Bert Marks, Kenneth Taverne, Dick
Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Thornton, Ernest
Heffer, Eric S Mendelson, J. J. Tinn, James
Henig, Stanley Millan, Bruce Urwin, T. W.
Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret Milne, Edward (Blyth) Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Hooley, Frank Mitchell, R. C. (S'th' pton, Test) Walden, Brian (All Saints)
Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) Moonman, Eric Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Wallace, George
Hoy, James Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Watkins, David (Consett)
Huckfield, Leslie Murray, Albert We[...]beloved, James
Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) Neal, Harold Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Hynd, John Newens, Stan Whitaker, Ben
Irvine, Sir Arthur Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon) Wllkins, W. A.
Jackson, Colin (B'h'se &Spenb'gh) Oakes, Gordon Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Ogden, Eric Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)
Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) O'Malley, Brian Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Jones, Dan (Burnley) Oram, Albert E Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham. S.) Orbach, Maurice Woof, Robert
Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) Orme, Stanley Yates, Victor
Judd, Frank Oswald, Thomas
Kenyon, Clifford Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Kerr, Russell (Feltham) Owen, Will (Morpeth) Mr. Ioan Evans and
Lawson, George Page, Derek (King's Lynn) Mr. Eric G. Varley.
NOES
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Eyre, Reginald McMaster, Stanley
Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n &M'd'n) Fortescue, Tim Maginnis, John E.
Baker, W. H. K Foster, Sir John Maude, Angus
Balniel, Lord Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Mawby, Ray
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Goa. & Fhm) Glover, Sir Douglas Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Bessell, Peter Glyn, Sir Richard Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Biffen, John Goodhew, Victor Monro, Hector
Biggs-Davison, John Gower, Raymond Montgomery, Fergus
Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel Grant, Anthony Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
Boardman, Tom Grant-Ferris, R Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Bossom, Sir Clive Gresham Cooke, R Murton, Oscar
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Grieve, Percy Nabarro, Sir Gerald
Brewis, John Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Brinton Sir Tatton Gurden, Harold Nott, John
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Harris, Reader(Heston) Onslow, Cranley
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Osborn, John (Hallam)
Buck, Antony (Colchester) Hastings, Stephen Page, Graham (Crosby)
Burden, F. A. Hay, John Pardoe, John
Carlisle, Mark Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)
Cary, Sir Robert Heseltine, Michael. Percival, Ian
Clark, Henry Hill, J. E. B Pink, R. Bonner
Clegg, Walter Holland, Philip Pounder, Rafton
Corfield, F. V Hordern, peter Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Costain, A. P Howell, David (Cuildford) Prior, J. M. L.
Dalkeith, Earl of Hunt, John Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Dance, James Hutchison, Michael Clark Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) Iremonger, T. L Ridsdale, Julian
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Eden, Sir John Kjmball, Marcus Royle, Anthony
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Knight, Mrs. Jill Russell, Sir Ronald
Elliott.R.w (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne.N.) Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) Sharples, Richard
Emery, Peter Lubbock, Eric Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &Whitby)
Errington, Sir Eric Maclean, Sir Fitzroy Silvester, Frederick
Sinclair, Sir George Tilney, John Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Smith, John Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Steel, David (Roxburgh) Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John Worsley, Marcus
Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Rlpon) Viekert, Dame Joan
Summers, Sir Spencer Walker, Peter (Worcester) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Teeling, Sir William Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek Mr. Jasper More and
Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy Webster, David Mr. Bernard Weatherill.

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.