§ Q1. Dr. David Kerrasked the Prime Minister what proposals he has for discussions with the Presidents of Zambia and Tanzania on alternative policies to end the rebellion in Rhodesia.
§ The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson)Her Majesty's Government are in close touch with the Government of Zambia, as with other Commonwealth Governments, on all aspects of the Rhodesian problem. Consultation with Tanzania is less easy since she broke off diplomatic relations with us in December, 1965, but as the House knows, my right hon. Friend the Commonwealth Secretary met the Presidents of Zambia and Tanzania during his African tour late last year.
§ Dr. KerrIs my right hon. Friend aware that most of us on this side of the Chamber support the insistence on Nib-mar as a prerequisite of any further moves in Rhodesia? Would he also accept that the same majority of us on this side of the House, and I suspect a number of hon. Members opposite, would 1547 equally support him if he were to demonstrate what we all know exists, that is to say, his concern for the future of Zambia and Tanzania in this context?
§ The Prime MinisterI have had ample opportunity, both at Question Time and in debates, for being very well informed of the views of hon. Members in all parts of the House on this question.
§ Mr. MaudlingDoes the Prime Minister not recognise that any negotiated settlement is totally impossible on the basis of Nibmar?
§ The Prime MinisterThe right hon. Gentleman has raised that many times in the past and I would refer him to the answer I gave him on the last occasion.
§ Sir Knox CunninghamWould the Prime Minister also consult with Dr. Banda of Malawi? Could he not perhaps get a more realistic view of the present situation in this way?
§ The Prime MinisterI am in close touch with the President of Malawi, as with all other Commonwealth Heads of Government. I had the opportunity of discussing this matter with the President of Malawi when he was last in this country.
§ Q2. Mr. Winnickasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the latest position on Rhodesia.
§ Q8. Mr. Bostonasked the Prime Minister if he will make a further statement about the Rhodesian situation.
§ The Prime MinisterI would refer my hon. Friends to the Answers given to Questions on this subject last Tuesday by my right hon. Friend the Commonwealth Secretary and to my own Answers to Questions on 18th, 25th, 30th January. —[Vol. 757, c. 1067; Vol. 756, c. 1948; Vol. 757, c. 578; Vol. 757, c. 1087.]
§ Mr. WinnickIs the Prime Minister aware that some Conservative M.P.s have been saying in Rhodesia that the régime should stick it out because a Conservative Government would drop sanctions immediately? Would the Prime Minister consider asking the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home), when he makes his visit to Rhodesia, to dissociate his party from that form of mischief-making?
§ The Prime MinisterI am aware that on past occasions, particularly just before the last General Election, this kind of wishful thinking existed on the part of Rhodesian authorities, as a result of things said to them. I have certainly no need to make any representations to the right hon. Gentleman, because his own record in this matter, when he was Prime Minister, is very clear and I know that he will wish to stand by the warning that he then gave to the then Government.
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeI thank the right hon. Gentleman very much. Am I right in thinking that he has put his right hon. Friend in Coventry for a month?
§ The Prime MinisterAs the right hon. Gentleman knows, following his distinguished example, I do not interfere in these matters, having complete confidence—as I think he had—in my Chief Whip. The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that unlike the situation in Rhodesia, the activities of all Members of Parliament in this country are abundantly reported, and not subject to censorship, as in the country he is shortly to visit.
§ Mr. Frederic HarrisWhen will the Prime Minister realistically face the fact that, contrary to his own expectations, sanctions have failed and will continue to fail? What does he propose to do next?
§ The Prime MinisterIf the hon. Gentleman thinks that sanctions have failed, he had better get in touch with the Rhodesian Tobacco Growers' Association to see whether it agrees.
§ Mr. BellengerHas my right hon. Friend noticed the conciliatory replies by Lord Shepherd, the representative of the Government in another place, during the debate on Lord Alport's suggestion about Rhodesia? Lord Alport was the Government representative who went to Rhodesia. When will we have an opportunity to discuss these cognate matters?
§ The Prime MinisterI am well aware of what was said in another place on these matters. What I think is regrettable is that the important statement made by Lord Alport, on his own responsibility, was fully censored in Rhodesia so that 1549 the advice which he then gave was not available to the general public of Rhodesia. My right hon. Friend will be aware that, after we invited Lord Alport last year to put certain propositions and to sound out feeling there, it became clear from my right hon. Friend's visit that, far from any move being made towards acceptance of the "Tiger" proposals, the Rhodesian authorities had moved a great deal further from them.
§ Mr. HeathIs the Prime Minister aware that, although sanctions have had an effect on the economy of Rhodesia, there is no indication that they can ever have a decisive effect on the régime in Rhodesia or on Rhodesia itself? As the Prime Minister himself has forsworn the use of force, this matter can be dealt with only through negotiation. Therefore, should not he and the Commonwealth Secretary continue their efforts to resolve the conflict which exists, some aspects of which were shown to the Commonwealth Secretary during his last visit?
§ The Prime MinisterOf course, the right hon. Gentleman must take responsibility for the views which he expressed about sanctions and their possible effect. But my right hon. Friend was in Rhodesia following Lord Alport's mission and, as the House well knows, there was a very serious reversal, even from the post "Tiger" situation, by the Rhodesian authorities in that they laid down new conditions which went a long way beyond "Tiger" and were totally opposed to the principles which the Conservative Party and we ourselves have always put forward.
§ Mr. HeathIf, as I believe, this matter must be settled by negotiation, surely the job of the Commonwealth Secretary is to see how the points raised by Mr. Smith can be negotiated in the context of the five principles, and that as the British Government—[Interruption] There are many observers who believe that this is not impossible. As Britain is the major country involved, surely the onus must rest on us to continue efforts through negotiation.
§ The Prime MinisterThe purpose of the "Tiger" discussion was to see how far we could reach a settlement based on the six principles, and that was also the purpose of my right hon. Friend's visit. 1550 What became clear from the new terms insisted on by the Rhodesian authorities was that they totally rejected the principles; they have now totally rejected them. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that all problems of this kind ultimately need to be settled by negotiation, but there is a difference between negotiation between people who want a settlement within the terms and the suggestion sometimes put to us from the benches opposite that this Government should crawl to an illegal régime.
§ Mr. ThorpeWould not the Prime Minister accept that, since all three political parties in this House voted for the application of sanctions, all three parties were entirely sincere in that vote and would not wish in any way to reconsider their position? Secondly, would he accept that the view of the Leader of the Opposition that we are dealing with aspects of a police State, to quote his own words, makes it very difficult unless we are prepared to take the first initiative?
§ The Prime MinisterThe phrase "police State" has been used by the leaders of all three parties. Concerning those who voted for sanctions, I have never doubted the integrity of those on this side of the House or of the right hon. Gentleman's party, or of the minority of those in the Conservative Party who on a very famous occasion also voted for sanctions.
§ Mr. WyattOn a point of order. It was said recently that time and again on Tuesdays and Thursdays we had the same Questions on the Order Paper, the same supplementary questions and the same replies. We have now wasted 10 minutes on the subject of Rhodesia. Cannot we have another subject?
§ Mr. SpeakerThat point was raised last week. The hon. Gentleman must read the discussion in HANSARD.
Mr. J. T. PriceWould not my right hon. Friend agree that if Chief Superintendent Butler had shown a spirit of defeatism in condoning illegality similar to that evinced by hon. Members opposite —[Interruption] If one of our chief inspectors, the one I have named, had shown a spirit of condoning illegality, another man called Wilson would still be living in luxury in Canada on stolen 1551 money instead of having been returned behind bars in Parkhurst Prison?
§ The Prime MinisterPerhaps one of the many differences between the Rhodesian case and the one which my hon. Friend has in mind is that Chief Inspector Butler had the full co-operation of the local police authorities in dealing with an illegal situation.