§ 9. Mr. Roseasked the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs taking the national average at 100, what is the proportion of public expenditure per head of population spent in the North-West area and Scotland, respectively.
§ 36. Mr. Blakerasked the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs how public expenditure per head of population in the North-West Region compares with the national average.
§ Mr. UrwinMost items of public expenditure are not separately identifiable for English regions, and it is not possible to give either of the comparisons asked for.
§ Mr. RoseIs it not a fact that twice as much per head is spent in Scotland as is spent in the North-West of England? In view of the special problems of smoke pollution, dereliction and slum clearance in the North-West, will my hon. Friend undertake to try to close this gap? Is he aware that on the basis of these figures, there would be a very good case for a Lancastrian Nationalist Party?
§ Mr. UrwinReplying to my hon. Friend's point about the Scottish position, if we take the national average for Great Britain as being 100, the corresponding identifiable figure for Scotland is 123, but I would repeat what I said about the difficulty of extracting individual regional figures in order to make a comparison with Scotland.
§ Mr. BlakerThe hon. Gentleman may find difficulty in giving any figures in answer to the Question, but is he aware that his right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works gave me some figures on this topic two days ago which showed that in 1966 and 1967 expenditure on new construction by the public sector per head of population was 20 per cent. and 17 per cent. lower in the North-West Region than the national average? Is not that position disgraceful?
§ Mr. UrwinThere is an essential difference between those p.e. figures and the construction figures, as I know the hon. Gentleman will appreciate. There are other figures. I note those he quotes from the Ministry of Public Building and Works, and I note his concern, but that is not in accord with the Question on the Order Paper.
§ Mr. HigginsIs the Minister aware that his initial Answer was remarkably evasive? In order that we can see whether there is any credibility in this, can he say which economic services can be broken down and which cannot be broken down?
§ Mr. UrwinThe public expenditure figures are made up of all sections of public expenditure. If we talk in terms of per capita figures it is even more difficult to arrive at this conclusion because the requirements of areas vary so widely. They are so very considerably different that to talk in terms of per capita means nothing at all. I seriously doubt the percentage figures for the North-West previously quoted by the hon. Member for Blackpool, South (Mr Blaker).
§ Mr. BlakerOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
§ 12. Mr. Fletcher-Cookeasked the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what is the result of his discussions with the North-West Economic Planning Council about the Council's document, "Strategy II; The North West of the 70s."
§ 13. Mr. Arthur Davidsonasked the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what further representations he has received from the North-West Economic Planning Council on further economic assistance to the region.
§ 38. Mr. Tilneyasked the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs whether he has now had discussions with the North-West Economic Planning Council over "Strategy II" and the need for further investment in the North-West; and what, in view of his refusal to treat investment per head as a sufficient criterion for making regional comparisons, are his criteria for regional public investment.
§ Mr. UrwinMy right hon. Friend together with other Ministers concerned, had hoped to meet representatives of the Planning Council before Christmas to discuss "Strategy II". The meeting has had to be postponed but will be rearranged as soon as possible. This will give the Council an opportunity to make further representations about the problems of the region. Ministerial discussions with the North-West Council, and the Government's subsequent reply, will cover also the criteria for public investment.
Mr. Fleteher-CookeWas not that exactly the Answer given six weeks ago when this Question was put down? Why have there been no discussions, which were promised, meanwhile, particularly since the Minister's hon. Friend and my hon. Friends have pointed out earlier today that the North-West is seriously prejudiced concerning public expenditure, and has been ever since this Government have been in power?
§ Mr. HefferAnd long before.
§ Mr. UrwinThe hon. and learned Member referred to the Answer I gave six weeks ago. I am sure that he does not deliberately overlook the fact that I have already said arrangements had been made for a meeting before Christmas, but, because of circumstances beyond our control, we have not been able to have it. We will meet the North-West Planning Council as soon as possible after the Recess to discuss the whole of the implications and strategy.
§ Mr. Arthur DavidsonDoes not my hon. Friend agree that there is now an overwhelming case for giving areas such as the North-West, North-East Lancashire in particular, the same sort of grant-aid to help to clear derelict sites—of which there is a disproportionate number, and has been throughout the time when hon. Members opposite were in government? Why do the development areas get 85 per cent., while we get considerably less?
§ Mr. UrwinThe questions posed by my hon. Friend are clearly tied up with the Hunt Committee, which will be reporting very soon to my right hon. Friend. I am sure my hon. Friend will not expect me to comment prematurely. Indeed, I do not know what might appear in the Hunt Report.
§ Mr. TilneyDoes the hon. Gentleman realise that he has not answered my Question, that there is great need for public expenditure on roads in the North-West, especially to our ports, and that for the public sector we receive about half the amount that is spent in Scotland?
§ Mr. UrwinThe hon. Member and his hon. Friends have to make up their minds whether they want the Government to reduce public expenditure or to expand it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Oh yes. We are constantly subjected to this by the Opposition. I nevertheless appreciate the import and the intent of his Question. There is similar clamour from every region throughout the country on the question of roads and it is receiving attention according to merit.
§ Sir A. V. HarveyThe hon. Gentleman said that the meeting will take place after the Parliamentary Recess. Why could it not take place on 1st January? Why delay until we come back? Will the hon. Gentleman get it into his head that the North-West has had a raw time compared with the rest of the country, and that this is shown in all the by-election results and will continue?
§ Mr. UrwinI do not accept the premise on which the hon. Member based his remarks. When I said "after the Recess", I meant after the Ministerial recess, not necessarily the Parliamentary Recess.
§ Mr. OgdenDoes my hon. Friend agree that the North-West has had more help from this Government in four years than it had from the Tory Government in 13 years? Will he bear in mind that the North-West is not only a region of great problems but one of great achievements and great potential?
§ Mr. UrwinI accept the point made by my hon. Friend. What he has said is not singularly applicable to the North-West. Although great strides have been made in meeting a difficult situation in the region, this is applicable to every region in the country.