HC Deb 16 December 1968 vol 775 cc875-9
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Fred Peart)

Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement on business.

Following the exchanges on Friday, and bearing in mind the pressure of business, I have been considering the opportunities for a debate on the Pay of Building Workers.

I recognise the wish that, subject to the negotiations, the debate should take place as soon as possible and I propose that, if still desired, there should be a discussion of, say, three or four hours during Wednesday's sitting.

Mr. R. Carr

We welcome the readiness of the Leader of the House to seek to provide an opportunity for debate on this important matter. But may I probe the right hon. Gentleman a little further on what he means by the phrase "if still desired"? It seems to us that this will obviously depend to a large extent on the outcome of tomorrow's discussions. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if these discussions, as we hope, are success-full in averting the immediate crisis, we might feel that it is not necessary to have a debate before Christmas?

Mr. Peart

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for those remarks. The interpretation of "desirable" conforms with what he has said.

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Heffer.

Mr. Heffer

rose —

Sir G. Nabarro

Speak for the workers.

Mr. Heffer

The hon. Gentleman can not. Will my right hon. Friend reconsider the timing of this debate with a view to bringing it forward so that the building operatives, employers and all those concerned can hear the views of hon. Members prior to the meeting taking place? I realise that the meeting is to morrow, but I believe that my right hon. Friend should bring it forward at the earliest possible moment so that the view of the House can be thoroughly aired.

Mr. Peart

I am well aware of my hon. Friend's views on the matter, but I think that what I have said in reply to the spokesman for the Opposition is reasonable in the circumstances. Discussions are going on.

Mr. John Page

Will the Leader of the House give us an assurance that, even if a final decision has not been made by the unions about the attitude that they will adopt towards the direction from the Government, the debate can still take place on Wednesday and will not be indefinitely postponed?

Mr. Peart

I thought that my reply to the spokesman for the Opposition was reasonable. After all, discussions are going on.

Mr. Michael Foot

Will the Leader of the House tell us more clearly what he means by a debate during the course of Wednesday's proceedings? Will he specify what it means? Is that not a rather an original form of statement to the House on how debates are to take place? Should we not be told what my right hon. Friend proposes?

Mr. Peart

There is no attempt to conceal anything from my hon. Friend. When he says that it is an original form of statement, I am grateful that he assumes that I am original in my approach to the matter. I am anxious to satisfy the wish of the House, and I thought that what I said was reasonable.

Mr. Sharples

Will the Leader of the House say whether it is still proposed to proceed with the business already put down for Wednesday, the Representation of the People Bill, or whether it is proposed that this should be abandoned for Wednesday?

Mr. Peart

I did not say that. I think that we shall see how things go.

Mr. Turton

Surely it is most unusual for the Leader of the House to avoid giving the House the order of business. Will the right hon. Gentleman say definitely when this Order will be taken? Will it be taken at the beginning of Wednesday's business?

Mr. Peart

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, with his long experience, appreciates that this is not an Order.

Mr. Orme

Following up that point, may I ask my right hon. Friend in what terms the matter is to be presented? Will it be in the form of a Motion? How will it be debated? I think that we should be absolutely clear.

Mr. Peart

I am sure that my hon. Friend does not wish to embarrass me, or, indeed, anyone else. I merely said that we should await developments before we decide.

Sir G. Nabarro

Having regard to unfortunate precedents in situations of this kind, may I ask the Leader of the House whether he can give my right hon. and hon. Friends and myself an assurance that no impediment will be placed in the way of the official Opposition voting in a matter of this kind, supported by Members opposite who have made such loud noises on behalf of building operatives?

Mr. Peart

I assure the hon. Member that I wish to place no impediment in his or in my hon. Friends' way. I thought that the arrangement which I made would suit the House.

Sir Knox Cunningham

Would the Leader of the House say whether the vote will be taken between 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. on Thursday? Has he ascertained from the Deputy Leader of the House whether there will be a whip on that vote?

Mr. Peart

I cannot say. The matter of whipping is not one for me. I thought that after what I did on Friday, this was right and proper, and I am glad that what I did was appreciated by my colleagues.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

When shall we have an opportunity of debating the Motion for the dates of the Christmas Adjournment?

Mr. Peart

I am glad that the hon. Member asks that. I thought that I should be asked about it last Thursday. The debate will be on Tuesday.

Mr. Pannell

Is the Leader of the House aware that it would be very unfortunate if the Representation of the People Bill had to be considered through the night or in the early hours of Thursday morning? Bearing in mind his statement this afternoon, if we take the question of the building trade operatives on Wednesday afternoon, does he propose that we should take the rest of the Representation of the People Bill on Thursday morning? Is he aware that many of us place a great deal of importance on that Bill and do not think that it ought to be taken in the wee small hours of any night or morning?

Mr. Peart

I think that my right hon. Friend misunderstood me. He will appreciate that there is great pressure on business this week I am doing my best to satisfy the views of all hon. Members.

Mr. Eldon Griffiths

How much time does the Leader of the House propose to devote tomorrow to debate the Motion for the Adjournment? A number of us want to speak on that Motion. We think that this is no time for the House of Commons to go into Recess.

Mr. Peart

The hon. Member has made his point. When I announced the date for the Recess, I was not aware that he opposed it. If he feels that he wishes to make a speech, he has every right to do so.

Mr. Onslow

Why is the Leader of the House beating about the bush about Thursday morning? If we are to sit on Thursday morning, would it not be a good thing to say so, so that a large number of people who propose to visit the House do not put themselves out to no purpose?

Mr. Peart

Discussions are going on and, therefore, I cannot be precise. A morning sitting could take place under our Standing Orders.

Mr. Speaker

Sir Harwood Harrison.

Mr. Michael Foot

rose —

Mr. Speaker

Order. I do not recognise the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot) to have more right than any other Member of Parliament. He has put his business question.

Mr. Michael Foot

On a point of order. I was certainly not seeking to claim that I have any rights before any other hon. Member, Sir, but I think that it is the right of an hon. Member to rise to put a supplementary question on a matter. There is no Ruling of the House which provides otherwise.

Mr. Speaker

It is the custom of this Speaker to call one hon. Member to put one business question on one business statement. I am not prepared to vary that.

Sir Harwood Harrison

You called my name, Mr. Speaker. If you had not done so, I should not have risen, because the Leader of the House has since answered the question put by hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths).