HC Deb 10 April 1968 vol 762 cc1351-4
15. Mr. Munro

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he intends to introduce legislation to provide the police with powers to search for offensive weapons.

23. Mr. MacArthur

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will complete his consideration of the proposal that the police powers of search should be extended.

Mr. Buchan

I am aware of the concern of hon. Members on both sides of the House and I can assure them that my right hon. Friend will reach his conclusions on the proposal as quickly as is consistent with giving all aspects of the question full and proper consideration. Until my right hon. Friend has reached a decision the question of legislation does not arise.

Mr. Munro

Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that the people of Scotland have indicated for a long time that they want action? Why is he incapable of making a simple decision to introduce legislation to deal with offensive weapons?

Mr. Buchan

The question is whether we make the right decision. I am aware that this proposal has been erected as a kind of symbol. It is not necessarily the best method. We have to examine the matter. If I could get another 50 or 100 police in Glasgow, that would be a more effective extension of police powers.

Mr. MacArthur

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he has been swithering and dithering about this problem for some months? Is he further aware that we want a decision quickly and that for every week he delays a decision 70 more people will be maimed or injured by crimes of violence in Scotland?

Mr. Buchan

That is an absolutely shocking statement. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is true."] It is absolutely untrue to say that we can forecast the possible consequences of a possible useful measure. The hon. Gentleman is suggesting that this measure will cut out all crime, which is absolute nonsense. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It has not even been demonstrated how effective it might be. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw his statement.

Mr. Hugh D. Brown

Would my hon. Friend accept that many hon. Members and members of the public are becoming tired of this campaign being flogged by political opponents inside and outside the House, which is not in the best long-term interests of public-police relationships and is tending to divert the public mind from constructive approaches to the causes of crime and delinquency?

Mr. Buchan

There is a great deal of truth in that. I am happy to tell my hon. Friend and others that a good deal of constructive work has been done, which has been ignored by hon. Members opposite. For example, the recent Crime-stop Exhibition bought about an immediate 20 per cent. increase in incidents reported, but that would have the effect of pushing up the statistics and no doubt hon. Gentlemen would be getting on their bandwagon again.

Mr. Noble

But does not the hon. Gentleman agree that, in spite of what has been said by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Hugh D. Brown), the desire for a decision to be made is coming, not just from the Opposition, but from the Glasgow Corporation and Glasgow police? It is three months since he told us that he was looking for the right solution, and nothing whatever has happened.

Mr. Buchan

Again the right hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. There was a decision in connection with a request concerning powers of arrest when it was demonstrated that powers of arrest were more considerable than was realised. We are now looking at the second proposition—the power of search. But it is still important to inform the right hon. Gentleman and others that we want to make the right decision. That is most important.

Mr. Lawson

Will my hon. Friend confirm that what he is being asked by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite is for the police in Glasgow to have the power to stop and search any person at random in any public place?

Mr. Buchan

It has been a little difficult to know the consequences of the request made. It has been put to me as a power analogous to the power of search under the Firearms Act. On the other hand, it has been argued that the existing powers of arrest will subsume such powers. This is one of the problems which arise. I do not think, however, that they would claim they are seeking the power of random search, even though it may be interpreted in this way by hon. Members.

Mr. Wylie

Will the hon. Gentleman accept that my right hon. and hon. Friends would be satisfied if he introduced powers, even of a temporary nature, to give this a try? We accept that we cannot in advance say what the effect will be, but we never will know unless we give it a try.

Mr. Buchan

I am glad that the hon. and learned Gentleman has corrected the earlier statement of his hon. Friend in this respect. The possibility of an ex perimental time period is one of the matters I am looking into. There are certain difficulties in this, too. If the figures go down they will not necessarily prove that it was because of these powers. If they go up, further powers may be sought.

Mr. Monro

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.