HC Deb 03 April 1968 vol 762 cc369-72
Sir C. Osborne

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Will you guide me and hon. Members on the back benches on both sides of the House on a most important issue? I understand that a statement has been issued to the Press by some Ministers regarding the prices and incomes policy. The Press possess a copy of this statement, but the House does not. Furthermore, I understand that a statement is to be made to the Press at 4.30 this afternoon, without the House being told about it. How comes it that the Press are given information which is not available to the House, and how can back benchers protect their rights?

Mr. Speaker

It is very difficult for Mr. Speaker to rule on a matter of which he is as completely ignorant as the hon. Member is. It is usual for the House to know first, but the Chair can do nothing about this.

Sir C. Osborne

Further to that point of order. I apologise to you, Mr. Speaker, bit I have only just learned from the Press that they have this document, and that a statement is to be made to them. It seems not only discourteous to the House, but constitutionally wrong, that people outside the House should be told of a most vital issue, without the House being told. How can we protect ourselves?

The Minister of State for Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. George Thomas)

Further to that point of order. As the House is not aware of what the hon. Gentleman is talking about, and as the details are not known, and as you have se id it is customary for the House to know first, with all respect to you, Mr. Speaker, you do not know whether the House will be told first. I beg to suggest that there is nothing to pursue.

Mr. Speaker

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, under the guise of a point of order, for defending the Government.

Sir G. Nabarro

Further to the original point of order. In view of the importance of these deliberations, and the point of order put by my hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne), would not it be appropriate if the Leader of the House were here to deal with this technical issue? Why is he always missing on these important occasions?

Mr. Speaker

I take that to be a rhetorical question. It is not Mr. Speaker's job to explain the presence or absence of Ministers, or back benchers on either side.

Mr. Peyton

On a slightly different point of order. Mr. Speaker, I am sure that we all sympathise with you because of the humiliating position in which the Government have placed you—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I think that to sympathise with Mr. Speaker is to be a little critical of him. Mr. Speaker does not need the hon. Member's sympathy. Perhaps he will come to his point of order.

Mr. Peyton

I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that in no way was my sympathy critical of you. It was no criticism, disguised or otherwise. What I want to know is whether you think that confusion has now been worse confounded by the effort of the Minister to intervene on a matter which is nothing to do with him, and on which he is thoroughly incompetent to speak. The House has been left in a state of complete confusion. One hopes that some initiative will come from somewhere to end these humiliations, which the Government pile on the House so gratuitously, and without, evidently, ever being prepared to learn from their mistakes.

Mr. Speaker

These are matters which the hon. Member must take up in the ordinary way of Parliament with people on the other side with whom he disagrees.

Sir Harmar Nicholls

On a point of order. It has now been confirmed that the statement will be made outside the House, not at 4.30 as my hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) said, but at 5 o'clock. This confirms that it is to be made outside this Chamber. How can back benchers—[Interruption.]—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) must control his magnificent voice.

Sir Harmar Nicholls

How can back benchers protect their rights? Now that the Leader of the House is here, one hopes that he will to some extent mitigate this slur on the House as a Chamber by giving us some advance notice of what he is giving to the Press.

Mr. Speaker

None of this constitutes a point of order for the Chair.

Sir A. V. Harvey

On a point of order. I am sure that you, Mr. Speaker, appreciate the position in which back benchers find themselves. The Government are making it doubly difficult for us to perform our duty. The Leader of the House arrived in the Chamber at 3.40 p.m. and I do not know whether or not he proposes to make a statement on this matter. The Patronage Secretary has not been here this afternoon and we are left with one lonely Minister of State who does not seem to understand the problem. I therefore ask, through you, Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of House will help us in this situation.

Mr. Speaker

Perhaps we might now get on with the business of the House.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Richard Crossman)

It might be convenient if I comment on the matter. I regret that I was not in my place, but I did not know that there would be this commotion. A White Paper on prices and incomes has been published this afternoon. It is not the automatic pro cedure for a Ministerial statement to be made on all White Papers; for example, the Defence White Paper is published and there is normally a Press conference, without a statement being made. We then have a debate afterwards. I thought that this matter was of sufficient importance to have it published in the normal way, and, of course, it will be debated at extensive length. However, I take cognisance of the fact that hon. Gentlement opposite prefer to have Ministerial statements on all White Papers, although, as I say, that is not the normal procedure. However, I would never turn down the idea that we should consider a novel experimental procedure of this kind.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We must move on.

Later—

Mr. Peter Emery

On a point, of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask you to protect back bench Members of the House from inaccurate statements by the Leader of the House? It will be within your memory that, only a few moments ago, the Leader of the House informed the House that the Prices and Incomes White Paper had been published. If this is so, it is not available to hon. Members. It is not in the Vote Office, and I am informed by the Vote Office that it has not been published. This makes the situation even worse. I wonder what protection back benchers can have from the Chair against inaccuracies by the Leader of the House.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Gentleman should make his complaints at the appropriate moment to the Leader of the House. He will have the opportunity tomorrow at Business time. if Mr. Speaker had to protect hon. Members from inaccurate statements by Ministers and ex-Ministers, his labours would be almost too big to cope with.