HC Deb 03 April 1968 vol 762 cc561-7
Mr. Peyton

I beg to move Amendment No. 61, in page 12, line 6, leave out from 'service' to 'to' in line 7.

The Amendment would remove the words …or articles to he exchanged for such articles… I thought that I heard a gasp of astonishment from hon. Members opposite. I can well understand that, because if they have not read the Schedule before they might well find the presence of such words astonishing and amazing. It is a question on which the right hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) should be able to beguile the House for a considerable period, and I am sorry th it we cannot tempt him.

As I understand it, the presence of the words would enable the Minister to engage in barter. I cannot for the life of me see why he should want to do that in the context of the Bill. It has conferred many powers on the Minister of Technology in particular, and those other people who obviously relish the

euphemism of "competent authorities" under the Bill. Now, in addition, somebody has apparently been struck by the need for this quite unthought of one and decided that it had better be stuck in because it might be necessary. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary can announce in flawless English that it is his intention that these ugly words should be withdrawn from the Bill, because that would greatly add to the harmony of our proceedings.

Dr. Bray

I am always anxious to do anything that would add to harmony, but I regret that I shall have to disappoint the hon. Gentleman in this case. It is plainly advantageous to the country to have at least the possibility of barter deals. The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) stressed the réle of the British readiness to take a number of Lockheed airbuses for sale elsewhere in the world, and it is at least possible that this kind of exchange arrangement will become a feature of certain fields of advanced technology in the future. If we were to be without this power for barter it would undoubtedly handicap a number of markets.

Mr. Peyton

The paragraph continues …to sell, exchange or otherwise dispose of any such articles… Why have the word "exchange" there? It is already in the previous line, where there appear the offending words …or articles to be exchanged for such articles… That is what I do not understand. It seems to me to be quite unnecessary, and the Parliamentary Secretary has not satisfied me.

Dr. Bray

If the hon. Gentleman looks at the sentence again he will see that the first part covers the acquisition of the article and the second part the disposal of it. Both are necessary for a barter transaction.

Question put, That the Amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 125; Noes 146.

Division No. 110.] AYES [1.10 a.m.
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Blaker, Peter
Astor, John Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Boardman, Tom
Awdry, Daniel Biggs-Davison, John Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Baker, K. W. (Acton) Black, Sir Cyril Brinton, Sir Tatton
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Hiley, Joseph Pink, R. Bonner
Bryan, Paul Hill, J. E. B. Price, David (Eastleigh)
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) Holland, Philip Pym, Francis
Buck, Antony (Colchester) Horoern, Peter Quennell, Miss J. M.
Carr, Rt. Hn, Robert Hornby, Richard Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Channon, H. P. G. Howell, David (Guildford) Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Chichester-Clark, R. Hunt, John Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Corfield, F. V. Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Costain, A. P. Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Russell, Sir Ronald
Crouch, David Jopling, Michael Scott, Nicholas
Crowder, F.P Kershaw, Anthony Scott-Hopkins, James
Dalkeith, Earl of King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Sharpies, Richard
Dance, James Kirk, Peter Sinclair, Sir George
Davidson, James (Aberdeenstare, W.) Kitson, Timothy Stainton, Keith
Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) Knight, Mrs. Jill Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) Lane, David Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon)
Digby, Simon Wingfield Langford-Holt, Sir John Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)
Doughty, Charles Lubbock, Eric Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward MacArthur, Ian Temple, John M.
Eden, Sir John Maclean, Sir Fitzroy Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) McMaster, Stanley Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Elliott, R. W. (N'Ctle-upon-Tyne, N.) Maddan, Martin van Straubenzee, W. R.
Emery, Peter Maginnis, John E. Wall, Patrick
Eyre, Reginald Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. Ward, Dame Irene
Fair, John Mills, Peter (Torrington) Weatherill, Bernard
Fisher, Nigel Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Webster, David
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Wells, John (Maidstone)
Fortescue, Tim Monro, Hector Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Foster, Sir John Montgomery, Fergus Williams, W. D. (Dudley)
Gibson-Watt, David More, Jasper Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Murton, Oscar Winstanley, Dr. M. P.
Goodhart, Philip Neave, Airey Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Goodhew, Victor Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael Worsley, Marcus
Gresham Cooke, R. Nott, John Wright, Esmond
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Onslow, Cranley Wylie, N. R.
Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Osborn, John (Hallam) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Hawkins, Paul Percival, Ian Mr. Anthony Grant and
Higgins, Terence L. Peyton, John Mr. Anthony Royle.
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E) Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) McCann, John
Alldritt, Walter Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) MacColf, James
Alien, Scholefield Ford, Ben Macdonald, A. H.
Anderson, Donald Fowler, Gerry McGuire, Michael
Archer, Peter Freeson, Reginald Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Garrett, W. E. McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Gregory, Arnold MacPherson, Malcolm
Barnett, Joel Grey, Charles (Durham) Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)
Binns, John Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Manuel, Archie
Bishop, E. S. Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Mapp, Charles
Btenkinsop, Arthur Hamling, William Marks, Kenneth
Booth, Albert Harper, Joseph Marquand, David
Boyden, James Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Maxwell, Robert
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Haseldine, Norman Mayhew, Christopher
Brooks, Edwin Hattersley, Roy Mendelson, J. J.
Buchan, Norman Hazell, Bert Millan, Bruce
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Henig, Stanley Miller, Dr. M. S.
Carmichael, Neil Hooley, Frank Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)
Carter-Jones, Lewis Horner, John Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Coleman, Donald Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Concannon, J. D. Hoy, James Newens, Stan
Crawshaw, Richard Huckfield, Leslie O'Malley, Brian
Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Hughes, Roy (New[...]) Orme, Stanley
Cutten, Mrs. Alice Hunter, Adam Oswald, Thomas
Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Hynd, John Owen, Will (Morpeth)
Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) Page, Derek (King's Lynn)
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) Palmer, Arthur
Dell, Edmund Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)
Dewar, Donald Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Pavitt, Laurence
Dickens, James Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Pentland, Norman
Dobson, Ray Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)
Doig, Peter Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
Dunn, James A. Lawson, George Price, William (Rugby)
Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) Leadbitter, Ted Probert, Arthur
Eadie, Alex Ledger, Ron Rees, Merlyn
Edwards, William (Merioneth) Lee, John (Reading) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Ellis, John Lestor, Miss Joan Robertson, John (Paisley)
Ennals, David Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Rose, Paul
Ensor, David Loughlin, Charles Ryan, John
Evans, Ioan L, (Birm'h'm, Vardley) Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Faulds, Andrew Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Slater, Joseph Wallace, George Willis, Rt. Hn. George
Spriggs, Leslie Watkins, David (Consett) Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.
Swain, Thomas Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) Woof, Robert
Tinn, James Wellbeloved, James Yates, Victor
Urwin, T. W. Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Vartey, Eric G. Whitaker, Ben TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) Whitlock, William Mr. Harry Gourlay and
Walker, Harold (Doncaster) Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) Mr. Neil McBride.

Motion made, and Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—

The House dividend: Ayes 145, Noes 124.

Division No. 111.] AYES [1.20 p.m.
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Criffiths, David (Rother Valley) Millan, Bruce
Alldritt, Walter Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Miller, Dr. M. S.
Allen, Scholefield Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)
Anderson, Donald Hamling, William Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Archer, Peter Harper, Joseph Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Newens, Stan
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Haseldine, Norman O'Malley, Brian
Barnett, Joel Hattersley, Roy Orme, Stanley
Jinn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Hazell, Bert Oswald, Thomas
Binns, John Henig, Stanley Owen, Will (Morpeth)
Bishop, E. S. Hooley, Frank Page, Derek (King's Lynn)
Blenkinsop, Arthur Horner, John Palmer, Arthur
Booth, Albert Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)
Boyden, James Hoy, James Pavitt, Laurence
Braine, Bernard Huckfield, Leslie Pentland, Norman
Brooks, Edwin Hughes, Roy (Newport) Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)
Buchan, Norman Hunter, Adam Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Hynd, John Price, William (Rugby)
Carmichael, Neil Jackson, Colin (B'h se & Spenb'gh) Probert, Arthur
Carter-Jones, Lewis Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) Rees, Merlyn
Coleman, Donald Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Concannon, J. D. Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Rose, Paul
Crawshaw, Richard Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Ryan, John
Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Cullen, Mrs. Alice Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) Lawson, George Slater, Joseph
Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Leadbitter, Ted Spriggs, Leslie
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Ledger, Ron Swain, Thomas
Dell, Edmund Lee, John (Reading) Tinn, James
Dewar, Donald Lestor, Miss Joan Urwin, T. W.
Dickens, James Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Varley, Eric G.
Dobson, Ray Louglin, Charles Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Doig, Peter Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Dunn, James A. Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Wallace, George
Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) McCann, John Watkins, David (consett)
Eadie, Alex MacColl, James Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)
Edwards, William (Merioneth) Macdonald, A. H. Wellbeloved, James
Ellis, John McGuire, Michael Welts, William (Walsall, N.)
Ennals, David Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Whitaker, Ben
Ensor, David McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Whitlock, William
Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Vardley) Macpherson, Malcolm Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)
Faulds, Andrew Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Willis, Rt. Hn. George
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.
Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Manuel, Archie Woof, Robert
Ford, Ben Mapp, Charles Yates, Victor
Fowler, Gerry Marks, Kenneth
Freeson, Reginald Macquand, David TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Garrett, W. E. Maxwell, Robert Mr. Harry Gourlay and
Gregory, Arnold Mayhew, Christopher Mr. Neil McBride.
Crey, Charles (Durham) Mendelson, J. J.
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Buck, Antony (Colchester) du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward
Astor, John Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Eden, Sir John
Awdry, Daniel Channon, H. P. G. Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Baker, K. W. (Acton) Chichester-Clark, R. Elliott, R. W. (N'Ctle-upon-Tyne, N.)
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Corfield, F. V. Emery, Peter
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Costain, A. P. Eyre, Reginald
Biggs-Davison, John Crouch, David Farr, John
Black, Sir Cyril Crowder, F. P. Fisher, Nigel
Blaker, Peter Dalkeith, Earl of Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Boardman, Tom Dance, James Fortescue, Tim
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire, W.) Foster, Sir John
Brinton, Sir Tatton Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) Gibson-Watt, David
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.
Bryan, Paul Digby, Simon Wingfield Goodhart, Philip
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M) Doughty, Charles Goodhew, Victor
Gresham Cooke, R. Maginnis, John E. Scott-Hopkins, James
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmund) Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. Sharpies, Richard
Hall-Davis, A. G. F, Mills, peter (Torrington) Sinclair, sir George
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Stainton, Keith
Hawkins, Paul Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Higgins, Terence L. Monro, Hector Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon)
Hiley, Joseph Montgomery, Fergus Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)
Hill, J. E. B. More, Jasper Taylor, Frank (Mote Side)
Holland, Philip Murton, Oscar Temple, John M.
Hordern, Peter Neave, Airey Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret
Hornby, Richard Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Howell, David (Guildford) Nott, John van Straubenzee, W. R.
Hunt, John Onslow, Cranley Wall, Patrick
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Ward, Dame Irene
Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Osborn, John (Haltam) Webster, David
Jopling, Michael Percival, Ian Wells, John (Maidstone)
Kershaw, Anthony Peyton, John Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Pink, R. Bonner Williams, W. D. (Dudley)
Kirk, Peter Price, David (Eastleigh) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Kitson, Timothy Pym, Francis Winstanley, Dr. M. P.
Knight, Mrs. Jilt Quennell, Miss J. M. Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Lane, David Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James Worsley, Marcus
Langford-Holt, Sir John Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Wright, Esmond
Lubbock, Eric Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Mac Arthur, Ian Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy Royle, Anthony Mr. Anthony Grant and
McMaster, Stanley Russell, Sir Ronald Mr. Bernard Weatherill.
Maddan, Martin Scott, Nicholas

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.