§ Q4. Mr. Juddasked the Prime Minister whether, since the return of Lord Alport from Rhodesia, the Government are still committed to a solution of the Rhodesian 1497 problem on the basis of Nibmar and not on the basis of the six principles.
§ The Prime MinisterThere has been no change in our position on this matter since Lord Alport's return from Rhodesia.
§ Mr. JuddDoes the Prime Minister agree that there can be no confidence in securing full rights for the people of Rhodesia as a whole short of Nibmar? Does he realise that he will have the maximum support, from this side of the House at least, in any action necessary to achieve that objective?
§ The Prime MinisterI have nothing to add to what I have said on previous occasions about the declaration made by the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference last year. But I must repeat, as I did last time we discussed these matters in the House—because a lie has been carefully fostered on the question in Rhodesia—that we have made it clear many, many times in the House and in Rhodesia that there can be no question of early majority rule. When one looks at the state of African national leadership in Rhodesia one finds that very much emphasised. How much that is the fault of the Europeans there is a matter for debate.
§ Q5. Mr. Winnickasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the latest position on Rhodesia.
§ Q8. Sir Knox Cunninghamasked the Prime Minister if he will state what progress he has made with Mr. Ian Smith in reaching a settlement of the issue of independence for Rhodesia.
§ Q12. Mr. Ashleyasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the most recent discussions between the Government and the illegal regime in Rhodesia.
§ Q13. Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement about Her Majesty's Government's relations with Rhodesia.
§ Q16. Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister if he will make a further statement on the progress of the investigatory talks with the illegal régime in Rhodesia.
§ Q17. Mr. Hooleyasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement 1498 about the communications which have passed between the British Government and the illegal regime in Rhodesia during the Summer Adjournment.
§ Q19. Mr. Whitakerasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement about ending the illegal régime in Rhodesia.
Q23. Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the latest situation in Rhodesia.
§ Q26. Mr. Sandysasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement about Rhodesia.
§ The Prime MinisterAs foreshadowed in my statement of 25th July, exchanges through the Governor have taken place during the Recess. I have, however, no information to give the House at the present time, though I am bound to say that the tenor of the exchanges so far has not been encouraging.
The House will know that my right hon. Friend the Commonwealth Secretary will be leaving today to visit African Commonwealth countries to discuss matters of common interest with their leaders. As the House will also know, in the course of his journey my right hon. Friend will be visiting Rhodesia at the invitation of the Governor, and while in Salisbury he will be ready on the recommendation of the Governor and under the Governor's aegis to see other Rhodesians, including Mr. Smith.
A full report will, of course, be made to the House after my right hon. Friend's return.
§ Mr. WinnickWill the Prime Minister make some comment on the operations of South African troops and armed forces in Rhodesia? Does the Prime Minister not agree that it would have been better and more honest if the Leader of the Opposition at Brighton had educated his own party delegates to the moral issues involved in this dispute?
§ The Prime MinisterOn the first point, Her Majesty's Government have issued a statement and I will see that it is made available in the Library and to my hon. Friend. On the second point, I very much applaud the fact that in that speech, which I have read, the Leader of the Opposition fully supported the need for 1499 a return to legality and constitutional law and once again, and I think very rightly, reiterated the six principles, which were, of course, the policy of the previous Government, as well as being the policy of this Government. I think that that was entirely helpful. The only criticism I make is that he went on fostering the misunderstanding, the misrepresentation, that the "Tiger" talks foundered on a demand by us for direct rule. There was no such demand, and Mr. Smith knew it.
§ Mr. SpeakerQuestions put to a Minister ought to be about a matter in which there is Ministerial responsibility.
§ Sir Knox CunninghamWould it not be wise to reach a settlement and to get rid of sanctions in weeks, not months?
§ The Prime MinisterYes, Sir. It was offered in days last December to Mr. Smith. On that occasion he could have gone off the ship as Prime Minister designate—legal, constitutional, Prime Minister designate—and the unwinding of sanctions would have begun immediately. Unfortunately, he or a majority of his Cabinet rejected that very fair and just offer which was made.
§ Mr. Biggs-DavisonSince in Ghana the Constitutional Commission is giving serious consideration to a qualified franchise as more suitable to African conditions than one man, one vote, will the Prime Minister not be dogmatic about Nibmar but concentrate on trying to reach a just solution and press forward to the new legality described by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition at Brighton?
§ The Prime MinisterThe "Tiger" constitution involved a highly qualified franchise. It would have involved qualification for that franchise over a period of very many years before we came anywhere near one man, one vote. The best estimate made at that time was about ten to twelve years. I should not have thought that that was too long a period in the circumstances. What we cannot accept—and I do not think that the previous Government would accept it either—is deliberate action on the part of the European minority to hold back progress towards the achievement of the franchise. Our offer of a great educational pro- 1500 gramme, repeating the offer of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, was flatly rejected on the ground that it would have given too many Africans the vote.
§ Mr. HamiltonHow long will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State stay in Salisbury? Does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister think that it is humanly possible to reach an agreement, based on the six principles, which would be satisfactory to this House and to our Commonwealth friends?
§ The Prime MinisterMy right hon. Friend plans at present to stay in Salisbury for two days, but of course, if necessary, he is prepared to stay longer. But he would require very much more evidence than has been forthcoming that there is willingness to talk about an honourable settlement in Salisbury. Certainly, no settlement would be reached by Her Majesty's Government that was not in any sense fully honourable and acceptable to this House.
§ Mr. HooleyDoes my right hon. Friend agree that operations by foreign troops and police in Rhodesia create an entirely new situation? What steps are being taken to deal with this?
§ The Prime MinisterI have already answered one Question on this subject today. South African police, not troops, were involved. We have rejected their right to intervene in British territory. When my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and I met the South African Foreign Minister, he limited their claim to be there to dealing with known South African terrorists heading for South Africa. However, we regard the intervention of these police as wrong and have said so.
§ Mr. WhitakerWhat action has my right hon. Friend in view to concentrate Mr. Smith's mind by further action, such as, for example, quarantining the port of Lourenco Marques?
§ The Prime MinisterWe have looked at the question of making sanctions more effective, but we should not overlook the deep effect that they are already having on the Rhodesian economy. One of the biggest problems is the sheer evasion of the oil sanctions through Lourenco Marques, and I have no doubt that this will be one of the questions that my right 1501 hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs will be discussing with Heads of Government during his visit.
Mr. Edward M. TaylorIs the Prime Minister aware that many people in Rhodesia and elsewhere find it difficult to understand our insistence on Nibmar when, in South Arabia, the Government are offering the cloak of legality to bands of terrorists not elected by anyone?
§ The Prime MinisterThat takes the Question rather wider than Rhodesia. I am aware that many people, both European and African, in Rhodesia find it difficult to understand what this House has decided, but this is mainly because of the tight censorship of any statement of our position, and, of course, the police control of the Rhodesian television and radio. Because of this, the Rhodesian regime is able to foster total misrepresentations, such as those about the "Tiger" talks last year and about our insistence on a very long period before majority rule can he achieved not by clock time but by achievement.
§ Mr. SandysNot wishing to intervene in the controversial exchanges which are taking place [Laughter.]—I do not think that this is the moment to do so—may I simply ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs will carry with him the good wishes of almost the whole country for the success of his talks in Salisbury?
§ The Prime MinisterYes, Sir. I thank the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys). I am sure that my right hon. Friend will carry those good wishes with him, and in the same non-controversial spirit I should add that I know he will carry the good wishes of all in this House in standing firm for the principles which the right hon. Member for Streatham himself laid down when he held office.
§ Sir Dingle FootWhile my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is in Salisbury, will he seek an opportunity to meet those African leaders who are now in detention and who represent many more Rhodesians than does Mr. Smith?
§ The Prime MinisterIn these matters my right hon. Friend will no doubt be 1502 guided by the Governor, although it will be recalled that when his predecessor, Lord Aylestone, was there on two occasions last autumn repeated and formal requests by him to see the African Nationalist leaders were completely rejected by the régime. [HON. MEMBERS: "For no reason."] Mr. Smith had good reason. He was prepared to allow Lord Aylestone to meet them but Mr. LardnerBurke would not let him.
§ Mr. HastingsIs the Prime Minister aware that independent African Commonwealth countries both north and south of the Zambesi would now be prepared to consider an end to sanctions and discussion of independence?
§ The Prime MinisterThis matter will be discussed by my right hon. Friend with the leaders of those Commonwealth countries. But I know of no Commonwealth country which wants to sell out to an illegal action or to agree to a betrayal of the principles approved by successive Governments in this country and by this House. They would like to see, as we want to see and have offered, an ending of sanctions, but only on the basis of constitutional legality and the principles that this House has laid down.
§ Mr. ParkI understood my right hon. Friend to say that there was no early prospect of majority rule. Will he confirm that this must also imply that there is no early prospect of independence for Rhodesia?
§ The Prime MinisterI have already stated, in relation to the Nibmar reference, as it is called, that we stand by what has been said previously in this House—that we should require a very big change in circumstances to justify our going back to other Commonwealth countries on that question.