SCOTLAND (MURDERS AND POLICE RECRUITMENT) (Hansard, 23 October 1967)

§ Mr. Edward M. Taylor (Glasgow, Cathcart)
I should like to raise very briefly the subject of the increase in murders in Scotland, and the shortage of police in Scotland.—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, no."]—I am sorry that there seems to be no general interest here in this subject, but I assure the House that it is of great interest to the people of Scotland. I say at the outset that I am extremely grateful to the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland for turning up at very short notice for this debate, and I shall try not to detain him too long.
Normally, when we raise a subject of this sort on the Adjournment, we try to obtain from the Government specific assurances on a wide range of topics, but I can assure the Under-Secretary straight away that I have no intention of asking for widespread or general assurances. I ask only one thing, that he will as from this day, and looking to the future, show a very real sense of urgency in his policies in trying to deal with these two separate matters.
1445 I deal first of all with the question of murders in Scotland. My right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandy s) has done a great public service in drawing attention to the very substantial increase in murders in Great Britain as a whole. I intend to draw attention only to the position in Scotland. Let us look at some of the figures which have recently been available. In the year 1966, in Scottish courts 45 people were charged with murder. That, of course, is a substantial figure, and compares with a figure of only nine in the year—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving)
I wonder if the hon. Member would help me. Is he asking for further legislation, or for the strengthening of existing legislation, because if he is, that is out of order on the Adjournment. If he is not, I am not quite sure how he is relating what he is saying to Ministerial responsibility.

§ Mr. Taylor
My sole intention, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is to draw the Minister's attention to the seriousness of the situation in the hope that, in future public utterances, he will show a sense of urgency, as I think I made quite clear in my opening sentence.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
I am still in some difficulty. The hon. Gentleman can only raise matters which are within the competence and responsibility of the Minister. I am not sure that this is.

§ Mr. Taylor
The shortage of police in Scotland and the issuing of the publication "Criminal Statistics" would be the Minister's responsibility, with respect. I was not asking for legislation.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
The hon. Gentleman is now on a point which is within the Minister's responsibility.

§ Mr. Taylor
I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In the hope of trying to persuade the Minister to show a sense of urgency in his public announcements and in his general attitude to these matters, I wish to draw attention to three different statistics.
In the year 1966, 45 people were brought before the Scottish courts charged with murder. In 1963, the figure was nine. The fact is that, looked at in any 1446 way, there has been a startling increase in the number of people appearing before Scottish courts charged with murder. It could be said that some of these murders relate to previous years, that there has been some overspill, and that, to that extent, the figures are not directly relevant. To look at the position another way, therefore, one might consider how many murders have actually taken place in the years 1965 and 1966, 1965 being the year when the move was started to abolish capital punishment.
In 1965, we had 32 murders in Scotland. In 1966, we had 30. That means that, on average, there were 31 murders in Scotland in each of those two years. If that position is compared with an earlier year, 1961 was by no means an exception, and one sees that there were 14 murders. It means that, in five years, the number of murders in Scotland has doubled.
It might be said that the figures for culpable homicides and murders can be juggled one way or the other and that, if only one figure is taken, a misleading impression can be gained. That is why I am interested particularly in the figures for culpable homicide in Scotland contained in "Criminal Statistics", where it is seen that 36 people were charged with culpable homicide in 1966, from which it is clear that the figure is 50 per cent. higher than in any year since 1962.
I suggest to the Under-Secretary of State that, whichever way they are looked at, the figures are alarming. The number of people tried has gone up four times since 1963, the number of murders has doubled since 1961, and the number of culpable homicides is 50 per cent. higher than in any of the previous five years.

§ Mr. A. Woodburn (Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire)
Can the hon. Gentleman say how many of the people tried were tried for murders for which the death penalty would have been applicable under the old law?

§ Mr. Taylor
I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman those details. However, it is fair to say that my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham has drawn attention to the fact that the number of murders which would have been the subject of capital punishment in Great 1447 Britain has increased by more than 50 per cent. It may be that the figures for Scotland are different, but the important factor is that those who believe in capital punishment as a deterrent—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman is getting on to matters which require a change in the law. He is out of order in raising them in a debate on the Adjournment. He must direct himself to requiring the Minister to do something within his competence which does not require legislation. The reintroduction of capital punishment would require legislation.

§ Mr. Taylor
With respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, may I draw attention to the fact that the abolition of capital punishment lapses in three and a half years? My hope would to persuade the Minister to do nothing after the period of three and a half years has elapsed. I am not calling for legislation. I am asking the Minister to do nothing at all.

§ Mr. Woodburn
Can the hon. Gentleman say how many people in Scotland have been executed for murder since before the war? There were 14 years when no one was executed, I think.

§ Mr. Taylor
I am not sure which of those interventions I should attempt to answer. I do not know the figures before the war. Those who believe that no new legislation should be enacted in three and a half years' time are not concerned with having a lot of people subject to capital punishment. However, we feel that it is a unique deterrent which can help decrease the incidence not only of capital murder but of all forms of murder, because not all that many people in the criminal world will differentiate between the two. It could be a deterrent to all persons engaging in crime, particularly to all those who carry offensive weapons.

§ Mr. George Willis (Edinburgh, East)
This is the strangest Adjournment debate that I have listened to for many years. We are having a debate to tell a Minister to do nothing. Surely the object of an Adjournment debate is to call attention to maladministration or to the necessity for a Minister to do something which is within his administrative capacity. I have never heard a Ruling given that we can have a debate calling upon a Minister 1448 to do nothing. It seems to be rather absurd.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
The right hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) will appreciate that the Chair has had some difficulty with the debate so far. I hope that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) will now come on to something more positive than his rather negative approach so far. He must address himself to the competence of the Minister. To say that he wishes the Minister to do nothing is not the purpose of this debate.

§ Mr. Victor Goodhew (St. Albans)
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it not a question of the Minister persuading the Government to do nothing when the present legislation lapses?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. I do not think that that is a point of order.

§ Mr. Taylor
When I suggested that the Minister should do something, that was ruled out of order. Now I suggest that the Minister should do nothing—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. It was only when the hon. Member for Cathcart appeared to suggest that what he had in mind would require legislation that I said that it was out of order.

§ Mr. Taylor
I am obliged, My Deputy Speaker. Then may I try to get into order by suggesting that the figures which I have presented already and others which I shall bring forward should persuade him to take substantial action to try to remedy the shortage of police in Scotland, which is a direct responsibility of his.
We have a situation today where the numbers of murders are increasing substantially. At the same time, we have a desperate shortage of police. This alarming position in Scotland is causing people to be afraid to open their doors and to walk through our towns and cities, and one thing which should be done is to ensure that un-to-date information is available in the way of statistics.
I was extremely alarmed, when I put down two Questions on today's Order Paper asking for up-to-date information on the number of murders which took place in the first nine months of 1967, to be told that the figures are not available and will not be until 1968. The 1449 criminal statistics for 1966 were not published until August, 1967, in Command Paper 3336. Faced with this very substantial increase in the number of murders, does that mean that the Government will not be in a position to give up-to-date information until August, 1968? That is an inference which I must draw from the fact that the statistics for 1966 were not published until August, 1967.
I suggest that it is rather alarming that we should receive Parliamentary replies to Questions stating that figures will not be available until 1968 and that full detailed statistics will not be available until the publication of "Criminal Statistics", probably in August, 1968. I suggest that up-to-date information should be provided on the facts.
In view of the present situation, it is even more alarming that there is a desperate shortage of policemen in Scotland. In a Written Answer today I was told that at the latest date for which figures were available, namely, 30th September, 1967, the strength of all Scottish forces was 10,232, while the authorised establishment was 11,201. There is, therefore, a shortage of just under 1,000 men. This is alarming, and I put it to the Minister that perhaps some local authoritiies have refrained from putting in applications to increase their authorised establishments simply because they know that there is no point in doing so because of the present shortage.
Faced as we are with a substantial increase in crimes of all kinds, and particularly crimes involving violence, it is extremely alarming to find that the police force in Scotland is 1,000 below its authorised establishment, and the situation does not appear to be improving. In 1963 there was a shortage of about 300 men, while we are now 1,000 short. This is a serious situation, and the Minister must be aware of the alarm among people in Scotland about this state of affairs. I hope, therefore, that he will show a real sense of urgency in trying to put the matter right.
In the past the Minister has often tended to regard those who have expressed alarm about the situation as creating unnecessary fears among the population. He has tended to take the view that the situation will right itself, that the present state of affairs is a passing phase which will soon rectify itself, that 1450 the situation is unavoidable, and that the Government can do nothing to help. I suggest that if we were to increase the number of policemen we could substantially reduce the amount of crime and bring about a greater degree of law and order in the community. I hope that both today and in the future the Minister will show much more urgency than has been shown to date.
Not long ago we received the Report of Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary for Scotland. Although dated October, 1967, the Report was for 1966. It is not good enough to publish a report in one year setting out the alarming situation which existed in the previous year. Let us have more urgency in dealing with this matter. Let us have up-to-date information. Let us have some positive sign that the Government are concerned about the matter, and are prepared to do something about it. If the hon. Gentleman can assure us about this, I am sure that the people of Scotland will be extremely grateful to him and to the Government.

§ Mr. A. Woodburn (Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire)
I know that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) must, like everybody else, feel distressed that crimes occur, but it seems to me that his reading of the statistics is extremely superficial. He has not produced any reliable information.
The hon. Gentleman seemed to want to turn this discussion into a debate on the restoration of capital punishment as a deterrent. He may like to know that though for many years capital punishment was provided for by the law of Scotland, for about 14 years no one was executed for a capital offence. According to the hon. Gentleman, the statistics quoted by him will encourage people to go out and commit more murders.
If the hon. Gentleman looks at the statistics for murder, he will find that most of the crimes were the result of passion, and even if we had 2,000 to 3,000 more policemen in Scotland they could not stop a man murdering his sweetheart in a fit of passion. The only way of deterring people from committing premeditated crimes is to ensure that they are caught and punished, and for this we need an efficient police force.

§ Mr. Edward M. Taylor
Why has the number of murders doubled since 1961?

§ Mr. Woodburn
Passions may have doubled since 1961. The fact that the number of murders of the kind to which the hon. Gentleman has been referring has doubled has nothing to do with the abolition or retention of capital punishment. A Royal Commission examined the statistics for murder in many countries and found no reason to associate executions with the number of murders.
If the hon. Gentleman is interested in this subject, he should read Buckle, who wrote a book about it in the eighteenth century. When the French Parliament debated the matter then, one of the eminent statisticians of the time showed that the proportion of murders per year in a given society varied very little. A certain number of murders take place in every community, and nothing that one can do has much effect in reducing the figure. This discussion on the statistics for murder has been going on for more than 150 years. The evidence shows that the retention of capital punishment has no demonstrable effect on the number of murders committed in any society.
I think that the House has wasted far too much time discussing capital punishment. There are far more important things than the punishment of a few murderers to discuss. I regret that the hon. Gentleman has painted this alarming picture about conditions in Scotland, thus causing women to become apprehensive about their safety. The type of murder that is committed nowadays is not the type that is influenced by the number of policemen available to deal with crime, and the hon. Gentleman is causing alarm and despondency among the population.
I think that the hon. Gentleman would do far more good if he were to devote himself to asking the Government to increase the number of policemen in Scotland, and to improve their training. A police college has been established there. It is doing excellent work in training young policemen and senior men in all the modern methods of detecting crime, which I submit will be a deterrent in the long term. A number of new methods of crime detection are being tried in Aberdeen and elsewhere. The community is not prepared to provide suffi- 1452 cient money to have police patrols in every street.
An aggressor always has the advantage, because he is able to pick his spot. All too often we hear of robberies involving £100,000 or more. Such a large sum of money is a great temptation for people to use the latest scientific methods and commando tactics to commit crime. If the hon. Gentleman can suggest methods by which such crimes can be prevented, if he can suggest how jewellers' shops can be safeguarded, he will be doing a great service to the police. It is a great disservice on his part merely to grumble and suggest that nothing can be done to improve the present state of affairs.
The Scottish police force is among the most effective in the world in detecting crime. No city has a better record than Glasgow in this respect, and to cast doubts on the effectiveness of the police force, and to give people the feeling that they are not getting all the protection which they should be receiving, will, I think, cause unnecessary fear and alarm.
I agree that it would be desirable to have a full complement of policemen in Scotland, but is there any evidence that a reduction in the number of police available has had any effect on the crime rate? The hon. Gentleman has produced no evidence to show this. One presumes it might have, but he has produced no evidence to show that any of the crimes about which he has been talking owe their increase to the decrease in the size of the police force.
When a Member is putting a case in the House he should put it objectively, and not on a propaganda basis. The hon. Member built up this case and sought figures to prove some theory of his without any reference to the facts. This is a bad way of dealing with things. Just as in the case of the Leader of the Opposition and the television programme to which reference has been made, when people went round Conservative clubs picking out young Conservatives who criticised him, it gave a false picture. The Leader of the Opposition was challenged to reply to the criticisms of a whole lot of Young Conservatives who were not supposed to want him as a 1453 leader. As far as I can see, it was not a balanced picture.
That is what the hon. Member has done tonight. He has not presented a balanced picture. He has not put forward an objective, statesmanlike argument. He has put forward a preconception, associated with his right hon. Friend, and has produced a whole lot of figures to back up his argument. He knows that figures can lie—and there is another part of that proverb. I am sure that he would gain the respect of the House to a far greater extent if he were much more statesmanlike and objective and presented a balanced case, instead of always being the devil's advocate and exaggerating the case in order to get the headlines.

§ Mr. George Willis (Edinburgh, East)
The hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) was rather unfortunate tonight and rather less well-prepared than usual. He first tried to raise a matter which was not permissible on the Adjournment. He tried to make out a case for capital punishment, based on a hurried survey of statistics concerning the crime of murder. That having failed, he suggested that the increase in the numbers of murders was attributable—

§ Mr. Edward M. Taylor
indicated dissent.

§ Mr. Willis
At any rate, the hon. Member linked it with the shortages in the police force. The interesting thing about murders is that the rate of detection and arrest is very high in Scotland. It is not in respect of murder that the rate of detection is low; it is in the sphere of housebreaking and crimes of violence apart from murder that the rate of detection has been very low. He was on a very weak point there.
He then said that whereas in 1963 Scotland was 300 constables under strength, in 1966 she was 1,000 short. What he did not tell us was the establishment in 1963 and the establishment in 1966. In 1966 it was very much higher than in 1963. That makes nonsense of his figures. If there is a shortage of 300 and the establishment is then raised considerably the shortage will increase. I 1454 should have thought that that was self-evident. The important question is: what were the numbers in 1963 and what are the numbers now? I have not got the figures offhand, but I do not think that they will bear out the hon. Member's arguments.
He should treat the House much more seriously. I can understand his being anxious to score political points and to show what a fighting party the Tory party is. That demonstration is badly needed. But he should treat the House in a rather more adult fashion.
There is a need for more police. All right, but how are we to get them? The hon. Member did not deal with that question. He did not suggest what my hon. Friend should do to try to get the extra police. About two years ago we asked the police themselves to inquire into many matters—anything apart from salary—in the hope that it would enable us to pinpoint some of the causes of dissatisfaction among the police, so that steps could be taken to remedy them.
This has been done. I do not know what the result of the inquiries has been, but this process has been going on. The hon. Member has been sleeping if he does not know this. There are so many subjects about which he wishes to speak, and so many occasions on which he wishes to entertain the House with the brilliance of his dialectic, that he has no time to go into these matters in detail. He does not do himself justice.
It is very difficult to discover what the real difficulties are. It is only by finding out what is wrong from the police themselves that we can hope to deal with some of these difficulties and thereby to attract more policemen.

§ Mr. Edward M. Taylor
The right hon. Member has suggested that there is nothing much that can be done about the shortage of policemen. Is he aware that policemen are leaving Scotland to go to the Metropolitan Force in London at present? How can he justify a situation in which the wage differential causes policemen to go to London from Scotland, where we are desperately short of them?

§ Mr. Willis
Now the hon. Member raises a specific point. If the police are 1455 leaving Scotland, we want to know the reasons. What are the wage differentials? Some of these policemen do not go to London; some go abroad, and some go to other parts of England. Why? It is not always because of the wage differential. The problem must be tackled by inquiring from the police themselves, and that is the way in which the Government have tried to tackle it.
At the same time, we must bear in mind the fact that this problem is not peculiar to the police; there is a shortage of teachers, of skilled engineers, and a shortage in almost every profession.

§ Mr. Woodburn
There is a shortage of people.

§ Mr. Willis
There is a shortage of people, and also a shortage of those with the necessary educational requirements and training requirements—and, in the case of the police, physical requirements. This problem affects almost every section of the community.
Furthermore, the problem does not arise altogether because of the shortage of police, or because of police organisation and methods. All these points are being examined every day and every week in an effort to improve the situation. Nobody would suggest that nothing can be done. I would not suggest that. I was a Minister at the time when we were trying to get the police to examine difficulties arising in the police force. We said to the police, "Tell us what the difficulties are. Let us have your opinion about some of the reasons for them." I know that there are difficulties which must be tackled. I merely point out that if he had made a contribution along these lines and offered a few suggestions the hon. Gentleman might have done the police some good. At the moment he is doing little good. He said that more police would mean less crime but this is more deplorably sloppy thinking by a very able young man and it is not worthy of him. The answer is not so simple, and trying to persuade people that crime will decrease with an increase in police of 50, 100 or 500 is a great disservice to the country.
The causes are difficult to ascertain. A number of reasons can be advanced. Why is one of the greatest increases in 1456 housebreaking? Thirty years ago, the average working-class home, because of low incomes, contained nothing worth breaking in to steal and the people could leave their doors open. This is not so today. Almost every home has something worth stealing, from meters containing large sums to radios, television sets and radiograms.
In other words, opportunity and incentive are much greater and people still fail to take precautions. Many people still leave the key under the mat and the windows unlatched when they go out. Even with thousands of police, human nature and fallibility will not be changed. Therefore, this suggestion is wrong.
Increasing the number of police would, of course, make a contribution, but the whole answer is not so simple. Consider the number of offences connected with cars. Thirty years ago there was hardly a car in the streets, but now, walking from Waverley Street to Great King Street, I see thousands. This is all a temptation and thousands of crimes connected with cars are committed every year—

§ Mr. Edward M. Taylor
The right hon. Gentleman has accused me of not doing my home work, but is he aware that housebreaking, in which he said there was the biggest increase last year, in fact showed the smallest increase, according to the annual report, of just over 4 per cent., whereas crimes of violence increased by more than 11 per cent.?

§ Mr. Willis
I took housebreaking because there has been a considerable increase in that crime—

§ Mr. Taylor
The smallest.

§ Mr. Willis
Well, the hon. Member selects one year, but one should consider trends and there is a trend towards a large increase in housebreaking.
There is also, of course, a considerable increase in the number of crimes of violence. Why? What is the influence of television and the average type of present-day drama? What is the effect of living in a world in which acts of violence are accepted almost as part of life? What is the effect on young minds? Most of the increase is among teenagers and young people.
1457 Society has changed enormously in twenty years and we have enormous freedoms which we did not possess before. To what extent have men and women and young people adjusted to them? We do not know. We must do far more research than at present—although a fair amount is being done—to discover an answer. Why do people take increasing quantities of drugs? That is not due to lack of police.
We must try to discover the effects of social changes on men and women, young people, teenagers and children. This should be the approach and not the facile, glib political approach of the hon. Gentleman. I am sure that he wants to see something done about this, as indeed we all do.
The hon. Gentleman spoke about murderers and was concerned with the whole subject of murder. I do not know to what extent he has visited murderers in prison and knows about them. He should make a tour of some of our prisons and meet murderers. If he does he will find that the bulk of them are not even given to violence. A man comes home and finds his wife with another man. Before he knows what has happened he has blacked out and later discovers that he has murdered his wife, the other man and perhaps the children as well. The biggest task for that murderer is to learn to live with himself. Once he realises the horror of what he has done he may find it virtually impossible to live with himself. A large proportion of murderers at present in prison are not given to crime in the normal sense.
The hon. Gentleman will find if he visits murderers that it is difficult to get through to them. The horror of their crime plays on their consciences and often it is not possible to hold a rational conversation with them. I am sure that the Under-Secretary, who I read in the Press has been visiting prisons, will support what I am saying. All the police in the world cannot stop this sort of crime from happening, and I do not pretend to be a psychiatrist or to know the answers to these questions. However, I know that it would be wrong, and would be doing a disservice to the public, to say that all these problems would be cured if we introduced flogging and other forms of punishment. Instead, we should be find- 1458 ing out what causes people to take drugs, to indulge in violence, to go in for housebreaking and cause society the other anxieties from which it has been suffering in recent years.
Why, at what would normally be a peaceful demonstration, should 30 policemen get wounded and people have broken legs? What emotions are suddenly aroused to result in these happenings? I do not know the answers. We must find the answers and attract people's attention to the need to carry out studies—and spend the money to do so—to solve this problem. I hope that my hon. Friend will explain what is being done, what research is being undertaken and what steps are being taken regarding the police, to study the problem of crime.

§ Mr. Hector Monro (Dumfries)
I have had too long an association with the police force, in an administrative capacity, to approach a short debate like this in other than a constructive way. The right hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) made an interesting speech and I appreciate the great personal effort which he put into helping the police force while he was responsible for that service when at the Scottish Office.
I do not wish to indulge in a defence of capital punishment. I believe that it should exist, but I will not say why tonight, because this is not the appropriate moment to discuss that subject. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the reasons for there being more crime, and said that we do not know the reason for the increase in housebreaking, crimes of violence, theft and the rest. I wish that we could do a little less talking about finding out causes and take a little more action in dealing with crime. It is the national malaise at the moment to set up committees of inquiry when so often the results can be forecast even before the first sitting of a committee. I wish we could have rather more action and rather fewer words.
Accepting, tonight, that there is more crime in the broad sense, it is also true to say that if the criminals were fairly certain in their own minds that the detection rate was increasing so rapidly that crime was not worth while we might see a reduction. We all accept, too, that the police service in Scotland is doing a very 1459 great deal to raise its standards—which, in any case, are exceptionally high. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) referred to the police college at Tullieallan. I have visited the college and I know that it is exceptionally good and is very well run. It bodes well for the future. It will be a day of great satisfaction in Scotland when we get the appointment of chief constables who did their basic training at our own police college. That will come sooner rather than later.
It may be obvious to say so, but in order to raise the detection rate we must have more policemen, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) has argued. I know that the establishment has gone up and that we have a larger number of policemen coming into the service, but the regrettable fact is that we are also losing policemen. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, East, in his journeys to the police forces of Scotland, must have felt the impact of the policeman's view about pay. He rightly argued that teachers, doctors, dentists and other professional people are crying out for increased salaries—

§ Mr. Willis
I did not say anything about pay, but I pointed out that there were shortages in all the other professions, and that those shortages had other causes.

§ Mr. Monro
Yes, but I believe that shortages in those professions stem from insufficient pay in comparison with what a person might earn in industry. Whether we should give the teachers, the police and the doctors a little more is a question of a balance of priorities, and this is where the politician must make a decision. I believe that crime has such a major impact on Britain at the present time that we should be prepared to give a greater priority to the police service.

§ Mr. Woodburn
The hon. Gentleman will agree that, while there may be a shortage of police, we have to some extent taken the scientific way of dealing with the problem by providing the police with much more scientific equipment and machinery—walkie-talkie sets, and all sorts of things like that—which greatly increase the effectiveness of each man 1460 in the force; and that science is to a great extent making up for the deficiency in numbers.

§ Mr. Monro
I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman, and had intended a little later to mention the new scientific equipment that has been introduced over the last ten years with very specific results. However, I do not want to say anything more about that.
Police pay should be increased and the increase should be coupled with increases in pension. Too many officers are retiring too young because, I believe, they want to increase their earning capacity while they are young enough to do so and, at the same time, get an early pension, whereas if their final pension is to be at a higher level they will stay on to the end of their allotted service in the force.
More from the point of view of the honour of the police force, when we are considering police pensions we should go back to all those who may have retired for 10, 15 or 20 years. Those elder statesmen of the police force have a tremendous power of recruitment of young men in their districts. If they felt that they had been well treated and had a good pension, they would be inclined to channel young people to the service. I hope that if there are negotiations retired police officers will be given careful consideration.
How right both right hon. Gentlemen were when talking about the improved conditions and facilities in the force in recent years. Particularly in rural areas the day of the police bicycle has gone. Every policeman should have a van and a radio set and be in touch with headquarters all the time he is away from the office. This is something which is developing very rapidly. Also when considering rural police we should pay tribute to their wives. No policeman will be happy in his work if his wife is unhappy. For long hours she is left at home alone, often having to answer the telephone and do all sorts of chores on behalf of the police service. It is up to us to see that the lot of the policeman's wife is made as good as it possibly can be.
In rural areas we should beware of too much centralisation. In Scotland a rural area can cover a wide variety of 1461 country districts and the fringes of towns, but we should beware of dragging everyone to the centre and having too few men seen on the beat during the day or night. It is important not to over-centralise the force in Scotland. A corollary to what I said about the policeman's wife concerns the standard of housing for policemen. It cannot be too high. It must be up to the highest standard of council houses in the area. We must also provide good accommodation for unmarried police officers who have no home within the area of the force.
So much could be said about the police, but in a debate which has come on at relatively short notice it is impossible to touch on every point one would like to make. I think we must accept that there is an increase in crime; statistics prove that. In my view, after many years of work with the police, we must look primarily to an increase in salary if we are to make a dramatic improvement in strength. The establishment is going up steadily. That is natural and I am glad that it is so. So also is the strength, but we want to get the establishment and the strength almost equal. The prime necessity is to tackle pay and pensions, coupled with rising standards of equipment available for officers in the force.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman has already spoken on the Motion. He has exhausted his right.

§ Mr. Dalyell
On a point of order. Because I made a contribution of one and a half minutes in a previous debate, which contribution was really in the form of a question, am I ruled out of order for this Adjournment debate?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
If the hon. Gentleman made a speech, of whatever length, he has exhausted his right to speak on the Motion and cannot make a second speech. The question of time does not enter into it. The point is whether he was called formally to speak.

§ The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Norman Buchan)
I have to thank my right hon. Friends who have spoken and also the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro) for the construc- 1462 tive way in which they have taken part in the debate. Although I would like to have done so, I much regret the fact that I cannot congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor), who initiated the debate. We all recognise the serious position we face. I am conscious of the moving speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis), who made the simple point to the hon. Member for Cathcart—"Have you ever met these people whom you are discussing? Do you really know the situation of these people?"
I got very little indication in his opening speech that the hon. Member for Cathcart had any understanding of it. I am sorry that in this kind of problem, which raises so many passions and so many fears, the hon. Gentleman should have tended to play upon those passions and fears. I do not think that his speech either helped towards securing the tranquillity of his native city, where I also live, or contributed to the stoppage of crime or to his peripheral interest, which is recruitment to the police force. The contribution of the hon. Member for Dumfries was in shining contrast, especially in the way that he dealt with the latter point, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for it.
Not only was the opening part of the speech of the hon. Member for Cathcart greatly out of order, but his opening statistic was inaccurate. The hon. Gentleman could have profitably used the half an hour which I was given to prepare myself for this debate by at least ensuring that his opening statistic was accurate. The statistics which he tried to call in aid are against him. I do not know to what extent I should be out of order, in view of the Chair's earlier Rulings, if I attempted to discuss the question of statistics in relation to murder. A comparison between our experience and that of other countries, countries which have abolished the death penalty and countries which have not, shows that there is practically no difference between the statistics. This is true even when comparisons are made within one country, where one state has the death penalty and another has not. Statistics are not with the hon. Gentleman.
The hon. Gentleman could have based his case on other grounds. He could have 1463 said that society demands this punishment and that for its own sake we want it back. However, he based his case on statistics. Not only was his initial figure wrong, but I ask him to consider this aspect before he again ventures upon this subject. First, there has been no sudden increase over the last few years since the death penalty was abolished, despite his famous ratio of 14 to 31. Secondly, trying to reach conclusions on a matter of life and death based on figures of 14 and 31 out of a population of 5 million is statistical nonsense, as the hon. Gentleman should know. His figures are far too small to base any kind of deductions on, let alone deductions involving life and death.
There are other factors. Since the introduction of our present legislation on murder, often defence counsel and, for that matter, prosecutions are inclined to allow a case to proceed as murder, whereas previously they would have fought to have it put forward in another capacity—for example, as culpable homicide. I know that the hon. Gentleman tried to cover this point, but he did not do it very effectively, because none of us knows to what extent many of the cases at present characterised as murder would have been tried as murder cases or classified in another way.
There is another matter to which the hon. Gentleman should give a little attention. We all recognise that there has been an increase in physical violence, in assaults, in brawls among young people. He did not pay much attention to this, but other hon. Members stressed this very important matter. If the hon. Member knows his own area, he should know that it is very simple for an ordinary brawl outside a pub to end in one of two ways.

§ Mr. Edward M. Taylor
There are no pubs in my area.

§ Mr. Buchan
No, there are no pubs in the hon. Gentleman's own area, and when earlier the hon. Gentleman called for the return of flogging, I wondered whom he wanted to be flogged. Did he mean the middle-class children, or will they get treatment by a psychiatrist? Is it working-class children for whom flogging will be seen as a deterrent? This 1464 is a matter which hon. Members should keep in mind. I have not seen some of the birchers advocating that their own children should be flogged. There is a certain class interest in this matter.
However, there are pubs in Glasgow and the hon. Gentleman should know very well how easily an assault can end in murder as much as in a simple buffeting on the pavement with the two concerned walking together down the street to the next pub. If the hon. Gentleman does not know that, then I am sorry and it is time he did know.
In his speech there was the dangerous suggestion that the deterrent to murder should be extended because of the increase in crimes of violence. Is he really suggesting that we should bring back a death penalty also for crimes of violence?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
It would be only proper to point out that the hon. Gentleman is now in the province which I ruled to be out of order when the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) was speaking.

§ Mr. Buchan
I wonder whether it would be in order to say that if that was not the hon. Gentleman's argument, as so many murders arise out of cases of assault, if the death penalty were not applied to cases of assault, it would not stop the murders. That is a piece of logic which the hon. Gentleman can moon over tonight.
The important matter is the rise in crime in general and the question of police recruitment.

§ Mr. Edward M. Taylor
Can the hon. Gentleman say which was the figure which I gave which he described as inaccurate? Every one was taken from his own Department's publication, "Criminal Statistics".

§ Mr. Buchan
The hon. Gentleman said that there had been 45 cases of murder; the number was 44.

§ Mr. Taylor
Table 5 on page 28 under the word "total" says 45.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. I cannot have two hon. Members on their feet at the same time.

§ Mr. Buchan
The hon. Gentleman should have gone on to a more analytical table, table 4 on page 27 which he can also moon over tonight.
We take this matter seriously precisely because we see an increase in crimes of violence, so many of them ending in murder, as well as recognising the problem that the basic murderer is quite different from the man whose assault is stretched into murder. The hon. Gentleman laughed when someone said that the second was not a criminal, but those who have met and know this problem know what was meant. Such men have committed a crime, but basically, as human beings, they are not a criminal type. If the hon. Gentleman does not know that, he does not know what he is talking about and he does a disservice to the community by raising the subject.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned police numbers. It has been suggested that I should have been giving much more urgency to this matter than I have been giving it in public statements, and perhaps the purpose of the debate is to attack my public statements. I do not know, because I have not heard it established at what public statements I failed to give this matter urgency. As hon. Members know, I have been to a very great number of meetings throughout the length and breadth of Scotland, meetings with magistrates, police and in the institutions where these people are confined. This he should know. I have been paying a great deal of attention to this matter, following the lead given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East. For the first time the Secretary of State for Scotland is now chairing the Police Advisory Board. This was not done when the hon. Gentleman's party was in office.
Now for the actual figures. Of course there is a shortage of police and of course we are making every attempt to recruit them. It is no answer to suggest that the shortage occurred from 15th October, 1964 onwards. The numbers have increased since. In 1962 there were 9,607, in 1964, 9,993. It is not until after 1964 that we get over the 10,000 mark. In 1966 there were 10,244. The hon. Member for Cathcart was complaining of the establishment. The figures in Scotland have risen. This is the key matter.
1466 We have a bigger establishment, and we should be congratulated for that. Even granted that we have increased the estalishment, in 1964 we were about 725 below establishment. In 1966, with our increased establishment, we were 887 below. Thus we have a figure about 100 below, with a greatly increased establishment. It shows urgency, not the opposite. I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman was wrong again.

§ Mr. Buchan
The hon. Member demanded that we get statistics month by month. He asks why we cannot have statistics for September. He complained that he would not get an answer about certain statistics up to September, 1967. The answer is that very often some things turn out not to be what they at first seem. This is true of alleged murder and a number of other cases. It is not until the judicial process has been gone through that figures can be produced, and this may take months.
Even in September we are fairly up to date. If he wants an up-to-date figure I can get the figure for police numbers in September, 1967. For the first time now we are reversing the trend and the numbers are on the increase once again.

§ Mr. Dalyell
What is being done to facilitate recruitment from the Services during the run-down of the Services, and secondly, can he explain why it is, in this day and age, that people of a height like himself are not being accepted for the police force? To some of us it seems very strange that when the well-known Chief Constable of the Lothian and Peebles Constabulary is a diminutive figure, at any rate in physical appearance, there should not be widespread recruitment of men of smaller height who might make excellent policemen?

§ Mr. Buchan
Those are both valuable points. The first one requires a great deal of attention, and I hope it will prove a fruitful source of recruitment. On the question of height, someone once said that the reason why I was the gaffer of the police force was because I was 2½ inches too short to be inside it. We have reduced the height and certain other physical demands made in the past.
1467 I have been told that certain people dislike being arrested by small men. They want to be arrested by big men so that their dignity is not offended. We have reduced the height, which should increase the recruitment figure.

§ Mr. Edward M. Taylor
Can the hon. Gentleman tell me how he could say, a few minutes ago, that there has been an improvement in the strength of the police in the up-to-date figure for September, that the trend has been reversed, when at five o'clock today I received an Answer from the Secretary of State for Scotland saying that the number was 10,232, the first reduction that we have had for five years? Can he explain how he feels that there has been an improvement when the Secretary of State told me that the figures were down?

§ Mr. Buchan
The point which I was making was that the basic trend has been reversed. In the first nine months of 1967, there has been a net gain in strength of 39. This is one of the difficulties which one runs into when hon. Members try to take a snap political point in a debate initiated at very short notice. I will see whether the figure of 39 correlates with the 30th September figure.
I come to the question of the detection rate. I accept that this is the real deterrent. This is the real answer to the question of conscious crime. The hon. Gentleman did not realise that we are also dealing with a social problem. He thought that more and more police would solve the problem. It would not. But that would help to prevent the organised crime. The detection rate has gone up slightly.
Among the measures which we have been taking, apart from taking seriously the question of the Advisory Board on which the Secretary of State sits to give it maximum governmental and public support, is the formation announced a few months ago of a national crime squad. There is the question of the unit beat experiment. The hon. Member for Dumfries referred to police being central and not local. I have seen the unit beat experiment in practice, with the use of small vans. We have great hopes of this, because it gets to the social point. It begins to knit the police into the community. This is the basic point with which we have to deal—the relationship 1468 between the police force and the community.
One of the most fruitful aspects of the recent discussions which I had with the magistrates from Glasgow was that we decided to meet again to look at the question of social delinquency and to see what can be done about linking the police as part of the community. We have tried to help with publicity methods. We recently carried out a campaign in Dundee. We have introduced more scientific equipment. We are encouraging and allowing local forces to increase the number of cars they are using in Scotland. A month ago we gave permission for additional expenditure to be made in that way, which I know will please the hon. Gentleman.
We are expanding the cadet force and introducing civilianisation. One of the problems is that the police are seen as traffic controllers and are concerned with motor accidents, and they often find it difficult to have the right relationship with the public when a more specific crime has been committed. We hope that the introduction of traffic wardens will release the pressure on the police to some extent.
In all these ways we are taking steps to deal with the real problem. I see no reason for the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that we are not tackling this matter urgently. I do not want to go into the question of the wastage of police tonight. It is a very complex problem as to why people leave a particular force or emigrate. Most people agree that it is not usually a simple question of there being no job and people therefore emigrating. Police are among the emigrant figures. The crude equation of wages does not explain why a man goes into another police force in England where there is no wage differentiation. No research has suggested that wages constitute the only factor in emigration.
One of the essential factors is the satisfaction which we can give the police in their job and the knitting-in with the local community. This is the kind of final answer which we are looking for which is not helped by the scare accounts of crime which we had earlier.
I hope that in the very short time that I have had to deal with what is far too 1469 serious a topic to be raised at short notice—

§ Mr. Buchan
I hope that my hon. Friend realises that he is spoiling my peroration.

§ Mr. Dalyell
This is a point of substance for my constituents and the A.A. Some of us feel that the police could be more fruitfully used in looking at the very considerable problem of speeding and careless and selfish driving on a road which has become quite notorious for its death rate. Would my hon. Friend say something on that matter?

§ Mr. Buchan
I do not want to pursue that particular point. It remains valid to say that if traffic wardens are used for general traffic purposes, one is ipso facto releasing police to deal with major problems, which might be major 1470 traffic or road problems, such as the point which my hon. Friend has suggested on the road in question, or it may be professional crime. At least, the police are released for dealing with those matters which are socially harmful if wardens do the basic technical traffic control.
I hope that I have emphasised both how urgently we take this problem, in terms of murder and serious assault and crime in general, and how seriously we have taken not only recruitment to the police force but the increasing efficiency of the police. I am confident that tonight, both from my hon. and right hon. Friends who have spoken and from the hon. Member for Dumfries the kind of contribution has been made that will help in that direction.