HC Deb 14 November 1967 vol 754 cc389-96

Motion made and Question proposed. That a Select Committee be appointed to advise Mr. Speaker on the control of the accommodation and services in that part of the Palace of Westminster and its precincts, occupied by or on behalf of the House of Commons, and to report thereon to this House.—[Mr. Crossman]

10.56 p.m.

Mr. Michael English (Nottingham, West)

Since this is the main part of the Question, I should like to ask my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House two questions. First, what urgency necessitated this being laid on the Table only at 10.30 last night? This is becoming an undesirable practice. Such short notice is not necessary on so simple and routine a matter, and I hope that my right hon. Friend can try to prevent this practice, which happens with other Motions.

One does not wish the Government to give two days' notice on every routine matter. This Motion would normally come under unopposed business, and one would not wish to oppose every such Motion for this reason. But the shortest possible notice was given in this case, and we ought to protest at the practice.

I recognise why the Committee's previous functions have been changed, but it is proposed that more than a third of its members will be Front Benchers. Not only will both Chief Whips be included but also the Deputy Government Chief Whip and another Opposition Front Bencher. My right hon. Friend should consider, although he is reforming the Committee to some extent, whether it is not a little overweighted in proportion to the House with Front Benchers rather than with back benchers. After all, the Services Committee provides services for us all.

10.58 p.m.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Richard Crossman)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. As to notice, we thought this was normal business and that no longer notice was required. The changes in membership have been concerning me, because ever since we did what I think my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) called the "nationalisation" of the Palace of Westminster, we have been in difficulty, because, to be effective, a small number of people are required to do a great deal of work.

The other two names were added to those of the Chief Whips because, bluntly, I want the Committee to meet regularly one day a week, and it was impossible to guarantee that the two chiefs could always attend. I would have liked to have alternates, but since this is impossible in a Select Committee, it was thought that the deputies should be members. But it was made clear that both chiefs and deputies would not be present and vote at the same time, but that only one would. I thought that reasonable, after taking the advice of the Clerk of the House.

I believe that the recommendation which we have made here is a good one, to get a small number of people who will do a great deal of work rather than a larger number of people who will attend only from time to time. By doing this we have managed to save a great deal of work in the Clerk's Department, because the Services Committee takes the place of no fewer than five Select Committees, each with its own Clerk.

Question put and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That Mr. Donald Chapman, Mr. Robert Cooke, Mr. Richard Crossman, Dr. David Kerr, Mr. Selwyn Lloyd, Mr. Robert Maxwell, Mr. Brian O'Malley, Sir Frank Pearson, Mr. Francis Pym, Mr. John Silkin, Mr. Sydney Silverman, Mr. David Steel, Dame Joan Vickers and Mr. William Whitelaw be Members of the Committee.—[Mr. Crossman]

11.2 p.m.

Sir Knox Cunningham (Antrim. South)

I wish to debate this Motion, since this is the only way in which I can raise the matter at issue. This Motion appeared on the Order Paper this morning, and it is being taken this evening. In consequence the Amendment which was handed in by my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Mr. Mawby) and myself cannot appear on the Order Paper. It was, to "omit Mr. Robert Maxwell".

I raise this issue because I do not believe that the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Maxwell) should be appointed to the office of Chairman of the Kitchen Sub-Committee. He held that position during the last Session of Parliament. His aim in making the Department pay is commendable, but his methods are deplorable. He is high-handed and dictatorial and hon. Members are not consulted. I often wonder whether the other members of the Kitchen Sub-Committee know of the changes which are being made in their names.

Let me give one example of the upset which has been caused. On 26th October I put down a Question about the abolition of tipping, and the Answer appears in column 562 of the Written Answers.

The Services Committee have resolved that tipping should be abolished. This decision has been agreed with the trade union representing the employees of the Refreshment Department."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th October 1967; Vol. 751, c. 562.] I was told by the shop steward representing the staff that that is not true. In answer to a further Question which appears in column 594 of Written Answers on 27th October, the hon. Member for Buckingham replied to me, I am not aware of any denial, but I will look into the matter."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th October, 1967; Vol. 751, c. 594] I have not heard from the hon. Member since then.

Our very good and very loyal staff are upset. There is a feeling of unrest among them, and I believe that in this new Session we should have a new Chairman of the Kitchen Sub-Committee.

11.4 p.m.

Mr. Crossman

First of all. I should like to ask the hon. and learned Member for Antrim, South (Sir Knox-Cunningham) whether he gave notice to my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Maxwell) that he would raise this matter tonight and whether he knew that my hon. Friend could not attend.

Sir Knox Cunningham

I put an urgent message on the board to the hon. Member. I left the message in the Government Whips' office. I rang his home. He was not in. I was told by the person who answered the telephone that a message would be got to him. I said that I was raising the matter at 10 o'clock tonight. It happens now to be 11 o'clock.

Mr. Crossman

My hon. Friend was known to be fulfilling a constituency engagement tonight and could not attend the House. I regret that this matter has been done in this way. However, in a way I am glad, because I would say to the hon. and learned Member that if he regards my hon. Friend's methods as deplorable, I find this method of raising the matter even more deplorable.

Sir Knox Cunningham rose—

Mr. Crossman

I am answering the question.

Sir Knox Cunningham rose—

Mr. Crossman

I will not give way.

Sir Knox Cunningham

Then do not accuse other people.

Mr. Crossman

The gravest accusations have been made—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving)

Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not intervene until he is given permission by the right hon. Gentleman who has the Floor.

Mr. Crossman

The gravest accusations have been made against an hon. Friend of mine. It has been moved that he is unsuitable to be a member of the Services Committee. It has been done in his absence when it was known that he could not be present. I regard it as deplorable, but I am glad to answer. It is a very awkward situation between one Session and another; in this awkward period, I, as the Leader of the House, am the only person who can answer on behalf of the Committee. The sole reason given was the abolition of tipping. If the sole thing that the hon. Member has got is that he thinks that the method of abolishing tipping is wrong, I would tell him that the decision was made not by my, hon. Friend but by the Services Committee. It was made, and now we shall see if we can carry it out. If the hon. and learned Gentleman feels that it is not done perfectly, he has a perfect right to debate, when we come to it, the work of the Catering Department. It remains true that when my hon. Friend took over there was a deficit running at £50,000 and that substantial improvements have been made.

But I go back to the original point. I feel that the selection of the membership of the Services Committee has been made very carefully and discussed through the usual channels, and I deeply regret if by this sort of method we should try to upset what I believe was the development of a team of people who were devoted in trying to do a job of work.

Mr. Ray Mawby (Totnes) rose—

The Deputy Speaker

Order. I ought to make it clear that any criticism of another Member of the House ought to be made on a Motion. I was unable to intervene quickly enough to indicate this, and, therefore, I allowed the right hon. Gentleman to reply. But I hope that it will not be continued.

Mr. Mawby

I just wanted to make the point that it is difficult for hon. Members, when they see an Order on the Order Paper in the morning and it is to be taken that evening, to do anything if the hon. Member concerned is not available. I believe that my hon. and learned Friend did everything that he possibly could to notify the hon. Member that he intended to raise the matter. I am as sorry as the right hon. Gentleman that the hon. Gentleman cannot be present, but I do not believe that in the circumstances anything other than this could be done.

The right hon. Gentleman may feel that we have chosen the wrong moment to raise the matter. But I do not want to deal in personalities. I want to raise the question of tipping and how it is generally spoken of in different ways. I think that we have come to understand that no member of the staff can accept a tip and retain it—

The Deputy Speaker

Order. I cannot allow the question of tipping to be discussed on the nomination of the Committee. That is out of order.

Mr. Mawby

Very well, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is obvious that some other occasion will have to be found to air the point. I believe that we have made our point as far as it goes, and as I should be out of order in continuing along the line that I had proposed to take, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman realises that we did everything possible to notify the hon. Gentleman and that it just happens that the Order was put on the Order Paper today to be dealt with today and there was no other action that we could take.

Sir Knox Cunningham

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You ruled my hon. Friend out of order in referring to these matters. I consulted Mr. Speaker because I had understood that this matter was one which was not debatable, but he informed me that this was an Order which was covered by the suspension and, therefore, one could discuss anything on it. My hon. Friend and I have tabled an Amendment, and the way in which it was intended to deal with the matter was to object to the Order so that it would come up another day and the Amendment would then be on the Order Paper. I understood from Mr. Speaker that this matter was debatable now, and that is why my hon. Friend and I have discussed it. I want to make that clear. If, instead of putting the Motion on the Order Paper this morning for discussion this evening, the Leader of the House had allowed us some time, we could have put down an Amendment and the matter could have been dealt with properly.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

I am grateful to the hon. and learned Member. He is perfectly correct—this Motion is debatable. It is exempted business. Therefore, I was not proposing to stop the hon. and learned Member because it was not debatable but because the matter that he wished to discuss was not covered by the Question before the House. I therefore do not think that there is any conflict between the Ruling that Mr. Speaker gave the hon. and learned Member privately and the Ruling that I have now given from the Chair.

Mr. Crossman

I want to make one thing clear. I think I am right in saying that when we put down, as we have put down, a Motion naming the members of a Select Committee it is unusual to anticipate that a name will be challenged, and even more unusual for it to be challenged in the known absence of the hon. Member concerned. We put down this Motion at this time as it is a perfectly routine matter, and we put it down at a routine time because we did not think that any hon. Member would want to challenge a particular name in a particular way. I do not want to discuss the merits of the matter. I just want to record the fact that we did a perfectly routine thing, and something entirely unpredictable has happened.

Mr. English

All the Orders on the Order Paper up to No. 25 were laid, as I understand it, by 6.30 last night, and this Order was laid at 10.30 last night. I had not expected to be so speedily supported on the point I made earlier. This illustrates the difficulties, but I am with my right hon. Friend here. Hon. Members opposite, particularly in the circumstances, should have gone to increased trouble to give notice to the hon. Member concerned. What I want to be sure about is that the House does not run away with the misapprehension that the Services Committee had abolished tipping; it only re-enforced a rule already in operation—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. What the hon. Member is now saying is out of order.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That a Select Committee be appointed to advise Mr. Speaker on the control of the accommodation and services in that part of the Palace of Westminster and its precincts, occupied by or on behalf of the House of Commons, and to report thereon to this House:—

That Mr. Donald Chapman, Mr. Robert Cooke, Mr. Richard Crossman, Dr. David Kerr, Mr. Selwyn Lloyd, Mr. Robert Maxwell, Mr. Brian O'Malley, Sir Frank Pearson, Mr. Francis Pym, Mr. John Silkin, Mr. Sydney Silverman, Mr. David Steel, Dame Joan Vickers and Mr. William Whitelaw be Members of the Committee.

That Five be the Quorum of the Committee.

That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records; to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House; and to report from time to time.

That the Committee have power to appoint Sub-Committees and to refer to such Sub-Committees any of the matters referred to the Committee.

That Two be the Quorum of every such Sub-Committee.

That every such Sub-Committee do have power to send for persons, papers and records; to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House; and to report to the Committee from time to time.

That the Committee have power to report from time to time the Minutes of the Evidence taken before Sub-Committees and reported by them to the Committee.

That any Sub-Committee which may be appointed to deal with the organisation of, and the provisions of services in, the Library do have the assistance of the Librarian.

That the Minutes of the Evidence with Memoranda taken before the Library Sub-Committee appointed by the Select Committee on House of Commons (Services) in the last Session, together with the Minutes of the Evidence with Memoranda taken before the Library Sub-Committee appointed by the Select Committee on House of Commons (Services) in the last Session of the last Parliament, with Appendices, and reported to the House on the 24th day of October last, be referred to the Committee.