Unemployment

HC Deb 13 November 1967 vol 754 cc4-10

7. Mr. Winnick

asked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement on the latest unemployment position in the country.

Mr. Gunter

I cannot as yet add to the statement given in reply to a similar Question from the hon. Member on 23rd October.—[Vol. 751, c. 355.]

Mr. Winnick

Could the Minister now state the likely number of unemployed during the winter months, quite apart from the seasonal factors? Is he satisfied with the amount of progress being undertaken for retraining purposes among those who are unemployed at the moment?

Mr. Gunter

The answer to the first part of my hon. Friends supplementary question is no, Sir. The answer to the second part is that there is still more to be done in the matter of training. I shall be answering a further Question later about that. I hope that there will be a better response from both sides of industry.

Mr. R. W. Elliott

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the leaked announcement by Lord Robens towards the end of last week about the future of the coal industry has caused immense distress in the North-East of England and that we are threatened, if what Lord Robens said is true, with most ghastly chaos in the North-East?

Mr. Gunter

Not only in the North-East, but the statement caused grave alarm in other quarters of the country, very great alarm indeed. As the hon. Member will know, whether these facts are right is not for me to say. It is a problem and in the Government Ministries we have had long discussions in formulating policies to endeavour to meet it.

Mr. R. Carr

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it is time for his Department to reconsider traditional policy regarding the refusal to publish forecasts, because the most responsible forecasts that could be available are much less liable to cause alarm than odd ones from different quarters?

Mr. Gunter

I do not know about the odd one, that came from that quarter, but I think it most unfortunate—[An HON. MEMBER: "Was it true?"] It was not true in that it had no regard for natural wastage and the run-down of the industry. As the right hon. Member knows, I am of the opinion that to make forecasts in many cases can bring more alarm and despondency than is required. I have shrunk from doing it. It may be that the hon. Gentleman will ask a Question in later months and have another Answer.

Mr. Frank Allaun

Is it the Government's intention that unemployment should fall in some areas and rise in others but that overall the total should be higher than that prevailing in July, 1966?

Mr. Gunter

I do not know that the Government ever have made any such declaration, nor has it ever been suggested. The most unfortunate aspect of unemployment is that existing in areas where it is running at 7 per cent., 8 per cent. and 9 per cent. Our prime concern is to deal with those areas.

Mr. Peyton

Whether Lord Roben's facts are correct or not, does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that just about the worst way in which to go about fortifying the morale of the industry was to make those kind of irresponsible forecasts?

Mr. Gunter

I have enough troubles without reflecting on Lord Robens.

21. Mr. Judd

asked the Minister of Labour what studies he has made of areas of above average unemployment within regions of below average unemployment; and what action he proposes to take.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. E. Fernyhough)

Such studies have formed part of the broad surveys undertaken by the regional economic planning councils with the full co-operation of the Ministry. My hon. Friend will also be aware that the Hunt Committee was recently appointed by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs to examine the problems of the intermediate areas.

Mr. Judd

Is my hon. Friend aware that there are areas such as Portsmouth which now already have levels of unemployment considerably above those in the regions of which they are a part, and where there is an urgent need for diversification and new industry? Can we have an early indication of Government attention to this problem?

Mr. Fernyhough

The unemployment in the travel-to-work area for Portsmouth is 2.7 per cent. which is not so much above the national average. As to the Government's intentions, I think they are indicated first by the setting up of the Hunt Committee, and second by the fact that detailed consideration is now being given to the survey of the South-Eastern Planning Region. First priority is being given to the Southampton and Portsmouth area.

Mr. Emery

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in certain areas, particularly in the South-West, where there are pockets of very high unemployment such as in Honiton, there is particular discouragement when applications to the Board of Trade for industrial development certificates are turned down? Will the hon. Gentleman have a word with the President of the Board of Trade and ask him to try to do something about that?

Mr. Fernyhough

I will certainly draw my right hon. Friend's attention to that. I hoped that the hon. Gentleman had been in touch with my right hon. Friend and indicated which firms have applied and have been turned down.

Mr. Emery

I have.

29. Mr. John Page

asked the Minister of Labour what was the percentage increase in unemployment in Great Britain between July, 1961, and October, 1962, and between July, 1966, and October, 1967, respectively.

Mr. Fernyhough

Total numbers registered as unemployed in Great Britain increased by 93.9 per cent., between July, 1961, and October, 1962, and by 112.3 per cent. between July, 1966, and October, 1967. Corresponding figures for those registered as wholly unemployed were 87.5 per cent. and 105.9 per cent., respectively.

Mr. Page

I thank the Minister for that Answer, but is he aware that it proves that the result of the Government's policy is deflation and unemployment, not redeployment? Will he make this perfectly clear in his speeches?

Mr. Fernyhough

Nothing of the kind. The Government would not have taken the measures which they have in the development areas, where there is the highest level of unemployment, if they were pursuing the policy which the hon. Gentleman suggests.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the number of persons in employment in Scotland today is substantially lower than it was when the present Government took office? Does not this show what a hollow sham and mockery all the Government's protestations about regional development have proved to be?

Mr. Fernyhough

I accept what the hon. Gentleman says about numbers in employment, but, if he will look at the figures, he will probably find that there are more in employment now than there were in some periods when he and his right hon. and hon. Friends sat on these benches.

33. Sir J. Eden

asked the Minister of Labour what was the total number of registered unemployed at the last convenient date; how many of these have been out of work for three months, six months, nine months and one year or more; and what is the average annual figure of those regarded as unemployable.

Mr. Fernyhough

At 9th October 1967, there were in Great Britain 561,000 persons registered as unemployed of whom 532,000 were wholly unemployed. Of the wholly unemployed, 78,000 had been on the registers for more than 13 and up to 26 weeks, 41,000 for more than 26 and up to 39 weeks, 30,000 for more than 39 and up to 52 weeks and 72,000 for more than 52 weeks. No one on the register is regarded as unemployable.

Sir J. Eden

In view of the last part of the Minister's answer, has he any evidence that men are discouraged from taking up employment because of the high rate of benefit? Do not the figures as a whole show that the programme for re-training for new skills must be much more energetically pursued than it is at present?

Mr. Fernyhough

I agree that we must intensify the retraining programme, and that is being done. Surveys have been carried out from time to time and various estimates of the number of unemployables have been given. I think that there are probably about 100,000 for whom it will be very difficult to find employment for a variety of reasons. I think that those who will not work because of social security benefits do not represent 1 per cent. of the figure.

Mr. Mendelson

Does my hon. Friend recall that all those hon. Members opposite who are now bitterly complaining about levels of unemployment gave full vocal support in the economic debate last week to the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) when he said that there must be no policy of reflation and that we must carry on along the rocky road? The only advice they now give is to cut down unemployment benefit, the traditional Tory remedy of the 1930s.

Sir A. V. Harvey

How did you vote?

Mr. Mendelson

Never mind.

Mr. Fernyhough

I agree with my lion. Friend that one has only to be in the House two days to know that the inconsistencies of hon. Members opposite will always make themselves known.

Mr. G. Campbell

Are the Government making an assessment of the unemployment that will result in Scotland during the coming winter from the recent rises in Bank Rate, and, in the longer term, of the effects of the programme of pit closures in Scotland?

Mr. Fernyhough

The Government are all the time taking such steps as they can to bring unemployment in the regions down to the national average. We want to see the figure of unemployment in the regions no higher than what has been the national average throughout the country.

Mr. Manuel

Is my hon. Friend aware that there are many areas in Scotland and throughout the country to which private enterprise will not go to provide employment? Will he now seriously consider advising his Department to press on with the location of Government-operated and owned factories in such areas, to prevent them slipping into further decay?

Mr. Fernyhough

I have no quarrel with that suggestion.

Mr. R. Carr

Is the Minister aware, since he appeared to agree with his hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson), that neither my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden) nor any member on this side of the House has ever suggested cutting unemployment benefit for this purpose?

Mr. Mendelson

The hon. Member just said it.

Mr. Fernyhough

I am very glad to know that in the 1960s the Conservative Party thinks about unemployment benefit very differently from the way it thought in the 1930s.

Sir J. Eden

On a point of order. In view of the interpretation put on my remarks by the hon. Gentleman—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Member must put it in the conventional way—even the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden).

Sir J. Eden

I raised a point of order with you, Mr. Speaker. Since the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) apparently deliberately misinterpreted my remarks, may I ask, through you, Sir, that I have an opportunity to make it abundantly clear that I said no such thing? I was genuinely asking for information from the Minister, in view of a number of charges which have been brought to my notice.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Gentleman has made his point of order.