HC Deb 08 November 1967 vol 753 cc1204-6

Motion made, and Question proposed,

  1. 1. That the Secretary of State shall be authorised, in accordance with orders to be made by him, to levy tolls in respect of vehicles using new roads constructed or to be constructed by the Secretary of State which cross the River Clyde at Erskine by a bridge or constitute the approaches to such bridge.
  2. 2. That it is expedient to provide—
    1. (a) for imposing restrictions and other requirements in respect of vehicles stopping or remaining at rest on the said roads, and for securing the removal of such vehicles and the imposition of charges in respect of their removal;
    2. (b) for securing the operation (either by the Secretary of State or by other persons) of a service of removing such vehicles from the said roads;
    3. (c) for extending, in relation to the said roads, the powers of prohibiting or restricting the use of roads conferred by the enactments relating to road traffic;
    4. (d) for imposing other prohibitions and restrictions in relation to the said roads and in relation to structures, buildings, works or apparatus on, under, or over those roads or connected therewith or with the regulation of traffic thereon or with the levying of tolls as mentioned in paragraph 1 of this Resolution;
    5. (e) for the provision of parking places in connection with the said roads by the Secretary of State, who shall be authorised to enter into agreements with local authorities as to the operation of those parking places.
  3. 3. That tolls levied as mentioned in paragraph 1 of this Resolution and any sums received by the Secretary of State in connection with the removal of vehicles as mentioned in paragraph 2(a) of this Resolution shall be paid into the Exchequer.
  4. 4. That it is expedient to provide for other matters incidental or supplementary to the matters specified in the preceding paragraphs of this Resolution.—[Mr. Harold Lever.]

12.25 a.m.

Mr. Hugh D. Brown (Glasgow, Provan)

I am not clear exactly what we are doing here, and perhaps I may be enlightened. We seem to be accepting a principle. Is it in order to ask this, and to return to the subject once I get a reply?

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Eric Fletcher)

The hon. Member is perfectly in order to ask the Minister questions about it. The House is discussing a Ways and Means Resolution, which is a necessary preliminary to a Bill to be introduced later, which will also give the hon. Member the opportunity of discussing the matter. But he is entitled now to ask questions about the purpose of the Resolution.

Mr. Brown

I am suspicious, because when we pass something, it often seems that we are committed.

Paragraph 1 says: …the Secretary of State shall be authorised, in accordance with orders to be made by him… I presume that he will be given the necessary powers by the Bill, but this raises a general principle about tolls. There are three ways of operating this in Scotland alone: I do not know the English position. The financial position for the Forth Bridge is different from that for the Tay Bridge. This is another Exchequer method of getting a return on the money spent.

When is the proper time for the House to discuss the general principle of tolls in Scotland? Since we are all a little touchy on the subject, I accept that no discrimination against Scotland is intended, because the same practice operates on the Severn and the Tyne, but I am a little perturbed, because this comes before the House apparently without any opportunity for discussing the general principle. I do not think that there should be tolls on any Scottish bridge. The Labour Party in Scotland thinks the same, though that is not necessarily the last word—[Interruption.]—I see no great interest from hon. Members opposite in this matter. I have already mentioned today that the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mrs. Ewing) is on holiday and not interested in some of these important matters affecting the people of Scotland.

I cannot understand the logic of this. I see that anything which brings hack money for the Exchequer is good from their point of view, but because the Clyde Tunnel, the Glasgow Ring Road or the straightening of some Dumfriesshire roads are expensive does not mean that we should stick on tolls, but we do it with bridges or something unusual. It does not make sense. I hope that my hon. Friend can enlighten me on some of the principles raised in the Resolution.

12.30 a.m.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Harold Lever)

I am bursting with knowledge about the area concerned and the bridge concerned, but, unhappily, I should be brought to order if I attempted to comply with the desire of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Hugh D. Brown) to have that information. If he is anxious to have it in a form which will be comprehensible and relevant to the questions which he asked, I must ask him to defer his queries to the time when the Bill is before the House.

This is a Ways and Means Resolution enabling me to bring before the House the Erskine Bridge Tolls Bill. The reason for that Ways and Means Resolution is that the Secretary of State has no general power to levy tolls on bridges. To get that power he has to bring in a Bill. Until we bring in the Bill we cannot give my hon. Friend adequate gratification of his very relevant curiosity about the Government's purposes, plans and arrangements in respect of the Bill. I therefore hope that my hon. Friend will assent to the Ways and Means Resolution as the best means not only of getting the Bill before the House but of getting gratification of his curiosity.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by the Chairman of Ways and Means. Mr. William Ross, Dr. J. Dickson Mabon, and Mr. Harold Lever.