HC Deb 31 May 1967 vol 747 cc88-92
48. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Secretary of State for Defence on how many occasions in the last two years seamen serving on Royal Navy ships visiting South African ports have been charged with offences against South African law; how many men were involved; and how many were subjected to corporal punishment.

Mr. Reynolds

I know of no members of the Royal Navy who have been charged with offences under South African law during the last two years.

Mr. Hamilton

That reply will need a certain amount of clarification. Can my hon. Friend give an undertaking that if and when British ships visit South African ports, whether there be coloured or white seamen on board, our Government will not allow those seamen to be subjected to the laws of apartheid, a policy to which the Government are unanimously opposed?

Mr. Reynolds

Any British citizen, whether Service or otherwise, visiting any other country naturally has to abide by local laws.

Mr. Lubbock

Would the hon. Gentleman not be big enough to admit that the Government have made a grave mistake in subjecting British citizens to the indignities of the South African racialist laws and now take steps to cancel this visit?

Mr. Reynolds

The hon. Gentleman appears to have got the wrong question.

50. Mr. Winnick

asked the Secretary of State for Defence why British Navy ships are going on an official visit to South Africa; what instructions have been given to the crews about internal conditions in South Africa; and if he will make a statement.

51. Mr. Boston

asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will cancel the forthcoming naval visit to South Africa unless the South African Government guarantees that full privileges will be accorded to all Royal Navy personnel; and if he will make a statement.

58. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will now take steps to stop the forthcoming visit of Royal Navy ships to South Africa, in view of the fact that such a visit would be tantamount to condoning the policy ofapartheid.

Mr. Reynolds

The visit is in exercise of our rights and responsibilities under the Simonstown Agreement, about which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Royal Navy spoke on 8th February. The ships concerned are returning from service in the Far East and will also visit the Falkland Islands and South American ports. Members of the ships' companies who might be liable to discrimination in South Africa have been given the option to withdraw before the visit; none will be sent against his will. The programme for those going ashore is being planned to include entertainment on a multiracial basis for all members of the ships companies.

Mr. Winnick

Although the Tories are not interested in anti-racialism, is my hon. Friend aware that a large number of people in Britain consider it shocking and disgraceful for a Labour Administration to be allowing ships to go on a goodwill visit to a Nazi-like State? Has this matter gone to the Cabinet and has it been given the personal approval of the Prime Minister?

Mr. Reynolds

I am aware of the feeling on this matter of a large number of hon. Members. Indeed, my hon. Friend has himself been telephoning my office every 10 minutes since last Monday. [Interruption.]

Mr. Winnick

Resign.

Several Hon. Members rose

—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Let us get on with Questions and Answers.

Mr. Reynolds

I have also discussed the matter with my hon. Friend. Her Majesty's Government have taken this decision to exercise our rights and responsibilities under the Simonstown Agreement. I believe, and Her Majesty's Government believe, that the arrangements we have made will ensure that we do not subject people who are legally claimed to be coloured in South Africa to the apartheid laws if they wish to contract out of that particular matter. This visit, which is under the Simonstown Agreement, does not in any way alter the long and often expressed views of Her Majesty's Government on the general question of apartheid.

Mr. Boston

Would not my hon. Friend agree that it is important for Britain not to give the slightest impression of condoning racial discrimination and that we must act consistently, especially in view of the robust and commendable attitude taken over Basil D'Oliveira and the M.C.C. tour? While my hon. Friend was somewhat reassuring in the final remarks of his reply, will he ask for a guarantee from South Africa to the effect that all our personnel will be afforded full privileges?

Mr. Reynolds

I am in considerable agreement with the remarks of my hon. Friend and I agree that the two matters are closely linked together. The programme for this visit is still being prepared. What I have seen of it I am satisfied with, but I will be pleased to make it available to hon. Members, perhaps in answer to a Question or perhaps by placing it in the Library, once it is finalised.

Mr. Hamilton

Would my hon. Friend say specifically what Her Majesty's Government hope to achieve by this visit? Can he say how many coloured seamen are involved in the matter; how many of them have contracted out or otherwise? Does not my hon. Friend understand that the policy of the Government on racial matters cannot any longer be taken seriously if this visit is allowed to continue?

Mr. Reynolds

I understand the feelings of hon. Members on this matter.

Mr. Faulds

Then act on them.

Mr. Reynolds

As I have explained, arrangements have been made for people who are legally classed as coloured under South African law to contract out of this visit if they desire to do so. I understand that one Pakistani Royal Navy officer has decided that he would rather not go on this visit and that one Indian seaman has decided likewise. As for the other coloured people concerned, numbering 18 in all, they have all, to the best of my knowledge, agreed to go on the visit; and I gather that one of them has a number of relatives in South Africa.

Sir A. V. Harvey

Is the Minister aware that we would be more convinced about the indignation being expressed by his hon. Friends if they showed equal concern for keeping the Gulf of Aqaba open to international shipping?

Hon. Members

Answer.

Mr. Blenkinsop

Is my hon. Friend aware of the strong feeling that exists in some seaport towns, particularly that being expressed by overseas communities in them, about this matter and of the suggestion that the recruiting facilities for the Royal Navy may be withdrawn?

Mr. Reynolds

I accept that from my hon. Friend, although I was not aware of it.

Mr. Lubbock

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that these coloured seamen and officers are being placed in a very difficult position in being forced to make a decision about whether or not they will go ashore? Does not he realise, from the Questions he is being asked today and from the large number of letters that have appeared in the newspapers condemning this visit, that the Government have made a grave mistake and that this visit should now be cancelled?

Mr. Reynolds

No force is being placed on the officers, sailors and other people concerned. They have the option to contract out if they so desire. They may remain on board ship while in a South African port or they can go ashore. It is entirely up to them. I am well aware of the strong feelings that have been expressed on this matter by hon. Members, by organisations and by other bodies outside. However, Her Majesty's Government believe, and I be- lieve, that the interests of the United Kingdom, from defence and other points of view, would be benefited if we maintained the facilities available to us under the Simonstown Agreement.

Mr. G. Campbell

While appreciating that it is necessary for the Royal Navy to carry out its training and operational duties, have not the Government very badly mishandled this visit?

Mr. Reynolds

There has been a lot of slightly inaccurate—I use the word "slightly" with my tongue in my cheek—reporting in the newspapers about the way in which this has been handled. Had it been more accurately reported I believe that there would not have been quite so much indignation expressed, although I realise that a lot of indignation exists in any case over this matter.

Mr. Orbach

Will my hon. Friend ask the Prime Minister to grant the same facilities to white seamen as are being offered to coloured seamen in view of their interest in the question of apartheid?

Mr. Reynolds

We are giving these facilities to contract out only to people who might suffer under the apartheid legislation.

Mr. Hamilton

On a point of order. In view of the grossly unsatisfactory nature of all the answers given on this subject, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.