HC Deb 08 May 1967 vol 746 cc1226-8

Lords Amendment: No. 33, in page 24,line 15, leave out "suitably qualified persons" and insert "a suitably qualified person".

Mr. Swingler

I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.

Lord Amendment: No.34, in page25, line 5, leave out from "and" to "that" in line 7 and insert: in the said excepted case means a person of a class prescribed by regulations under this section in relation to any particular class of goods vehicles or, subject to any such regulations,

Mr. Swingler

I beg to move.

Mr. Galbraith

I think that the Minister is getting into the habit of saying "I beg to move" instead of adopting the proper form and explaining the Amendment. He has done it three times. Why does he "beg to move"?

Mr. Swingler

I would have thought that hon. Members who were interested in the Bill would have followed the proceedings in another place as well as the detailed discussions and many assurances which we gave during the proceedings here.

This is a very simple and straightforward Amendment. Its purpose, as was carefully explained in another place, is to close a certain loophole in the arrangements about the definition of an operator of goods vehicles because of the possibility that a person to whom the vehicles belonged might form a subsidiary company to own his vehicles, but not to operate them, and might hire back the vehicles from the subsidiary without expressly agreeing to keep them properly maintained. We want to ensure that there are no loopholes about the responsibility of an operator under the Bill to maintain vehicles in a proper state. That is an objective with which the Opposition are generally agreed. Therefore, I should have thought that they would clearly have agreed with the Amendment, which closes a possible loophole to which our attention was drawn.

Mr. Galbraith

With the permission of the House, I would point out to the hon. Gentleman that that is much better. We can get on much better if, when the hon. Gentleman is moving an Amendment, he will tell us whether it is drafting or consequential, or whether the Amendment has substance. The argument that because a matter has been debated in the other place one can merely say "I beg to move", without giving an explanation, is an extraordinary one, particularly coming from the hon. Gentleman's side of the House.

I am delighted to think that the Amendment will strike a blow at people who use various devices as a means to escape their responsibilities to maintain their vehicles properly. I am even more delighted that it is envisaged that the disciplinary powers of a licensing authority will be used much more rigorously than they have been in the past. I have referred to the need for this in previous stages of the Bill. Unless licensing authorities are a good deal more rigorous than in the past we may as well not bother to make this Amendment. However, in the hope that they are going to turn over a new leaf and be rigorous, I support the Minister and I am glad that he has at last explained to the House the good points involved.

Sir David Renton (Huntingdonshire)

I want to give my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith) a little moral support in respect of the pressure that he has placed upon the Minister. I am sure that the Minister would be the last to make this House into a rubber stamp for another place. Unless we have some kind of explanation of what another place has proposed that is all that we become.

Mr. Swingler

I would draw the attention of hon. Members to the fact that, owing to our profound belief in democracy, as the result of discussions in Committee in this House, and not in another place, my right hon. Friend took certain action in regard to suspensions and revocations which undoubtedly will result in more effective enforcement of the provisions. I would not like that to go unnoticed, on account of the fact that whenever possible we use another place to good purpose.

Question put and agreed to.