HC Deb 20 March 1967 vol 743 cc1050-4
35. Mr. Hamling

asked the Lord President of the Council what representations have been made to him on present arrangements for morning sittings of the House; and whether he will make a statement.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Richard Crossman)

Various representations and suggestions have been made by hon. and right hon. Members. I think there is a growing realisation that morning sittings serve a useful purpose, but it is too early to come to conclusions on this experiment.

Mr. Hamling

Would my right hon. Friend consider that a more useful purpose would be served, particularly in the view of the full-time Members, if morning sittings were real morning sittings and not second-class morning sittings?

Mr. Crossman

I shall certainly bear that in mind. We must see how they go. But the important thing to remember is something that I said in our debate on procedure, namely, that our procedure should be for the convenience of the whole-time Members, and to make it possible for part-time Members to attend.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Arising out of what the right hon. Gentlemen said about the growing realisation of the importance of these sittings, was he encouraged by the enthusiasm for morning sittings shown by his hon. Friends this morning, when the sole occupant of his back benches—as he may not know because he was not here—was one small P.P.S.?

Mr. Crossman

I think that I have had occasion before to remind the right hon. Gentleman that the utility of morning sittings is not measured solely by the number of those who attend.

Mr. Rankin

On a point of order. Is it correct, Mr. Speaker, to describe the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) as a "small P.P.S."?

Mr. Speaker

Order. I thought that it was a term of affection.

Mr. Rankin

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am not concerned with affection from the other side of the House, but with rectitude. I was the solitary person on this side of the House.

Mr. Hector Hughes

If the morning sittings are to be continued, will my right hon. Friend organise the business in such a way that they will be early enough not to compete with the morning sittings of Committees? In other words, will he make the morning sittings earlier still?

Mr. Crossman

I shall certainly reflect on that suggestion. Of course, I bear in mind the need to consider the simultaneity of morning sittings and Committee sittings. That is one of the reasons for selecting one day rather than another for the sittings. Those are all matters to reflect on when we consider the form that they will finally take.

Sir J. Langford-Holt

Will the Leader of the House bear in mind that morning sittings would have quite a lot more support if they were for the convenience of the House as a whole rather than the convenience of the Government, which they appear to be at the moment?

Mr. Crossman

If it were true that they were not for the convenience of the House as a whole, what we need is to learn how to improve the experiment and ensure that the permanent arrangement for morning sittings is satisfactory to the House as a whole.

Mr. Rankin

Do I take it from what my right hon. Friend said in his reply to my hon. Friend that he proposes to make morning sittings operate pari passu with afternoon sittings, so that a major debate, such as a debate on defence, can start at 10 o'clock in the morning and proceed to the ordinary termination of the House in the evening?

Mr. Crossman

If that was the deduction that my hon. Friend drew from my reply, it was false.

Mr. Lubbock

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that by taking a large number of Regulations and Orders on the Land Commission this morning he has already shown that he has departed from the principle that only unimportant business should be taken in the morning? While I do not dispute that this might be a good thing, and that steps should be taken to bring morning sittings more in line with business for the rest of the day, could he not make such a change without an announcement to that effect in the House?

Mr. Crossman

That is a fair point. I am increasingly aware that the attempt to draw a distinction between important and unimportant business is becoming difficult because of the reasons given by my hon. Friend the below the Gangway, namely, that all matters are important to some people. I am reconsidering the definition I laid down in the procedure debate.

36. Mr. Hamling

asked the Lord President of the Council what steps will be taken to ensure that Members can meet constituents in the Central Lobby on mornings when the House is sitting.

Mr. Crossman

The arrangements for enabling Members to meet constituents in the Central Lobby on mornings when the House is sitting are exactly the same as those in force in the afternoons.

Mr. Hamling

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a couple of weeks ago some constituents seeking to lobby Members were unable to do so? Is that because of shortages of staff, and will he look into the matter?

Mr. Crossman

If the case is the one of which I am thinking, I think that it was not owing to shortage of staff but owing to a rule that when the House is not sitting green cards are not circulated. They are circulated during the morning sittings but not in the interval between morning and afternoon sittings. I think that the constituents came at 1.30 p.m. and got their green cards at 2.30 p.m.

Mr. Deedes

Will the Leader of the House bear in mind the very serious situation that will arise when parties wish to visit not merely the Central Lobby but other precincts? Will they be prevented from doing so except on Tuesdays and Thursdays? There will be real chaos.

Mr. Crossman

I am very much aware of the problems of parties visiting the House, particularly in the summer months when the flow becomes considerable. In the Services Committee we are now consulting the Serjeant at Arms to ensure convenience to Members and that at least Members' rights to take their people around the House of Commons as often as they like are not undermined.

Mr. Edwin Wainwright

Would my right hon. Friend agree that the reason we supported Monday morning sittings was to make certain that we did not sit too late at night and early in the morn- ing? Would he agree that the experiment has been an abject failure so far?

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is rather wide of the Question on the Order Paper.

Sir D. Glover

Will the Leader of the House look again at the question of the opening of the Galleries for morning sittings?

Mr. Speaker

Order. The supplementary question must be related to the question on the Order Paper.