HC Deb 15 March 1967 vol 743 cc484-8

4. Mr. Fortescue asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received a request from the British Overseas Airways Corporation for authority to purchase further United States aircraft for passenger service; and if he will make a statement on the British Overseas Airways Corporation aircraft availibility position.

Mr. Jay

No such request has been received. B.O.A.C's present service fleet of passenger aircraft consists of 19 Boeing 707–436 aircraft, 12 VC1Cs and nine Super VC10s. In addition, there are two Boeing 707–336C freighter aircraft used solely for cargo operations. In winter one Boeing 707–436 is usually out of service at any one time for major maintenance work. I understand that a substantial programme of modifications currently makes it necessary to have a second aircraft temporarily out of service. B.O.A.C. hopes to complete this work by June, if not earlier.

Mr. Fortescue

Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that whereas the passenger load factor on VC1Os over the Atlantic was extraordinarily high in 1966, nevertheless the growth of B.O.A.C's cross-Atlantic traffic has been much lower than that of any other airline? Would he not agree that this is almost entirely due to the fact that B.O.A.C. did not order enough VC1Os in 1964?

Mr. Jay

As the hon. Gentleman probably knows, the decision to put the extra 10 VC10 orders into suspense was taken in 1963 by the Conservative Government. Any decision a year ago could not have had any effect whatever in the present situation, which, in any case, is likely to be put right within a few weeks.

Mr. Rankin

Would my right hon. Friend assure us that, if and when B.O.A.C. wants to order further aircraft, he will do everything in his power to make sure that it is VC1Os that are ordered?

Mr. Jay

Yes. I am not sure that it is understood that there are eight SuperVC1Os now on order which will be coming forward in the months ahead as quickly as they can be got ready.

Mr. R. Carr

Is the President of the Board of Trade satisfied that, even when these planes come along, B.O.A.C.'s capacity will be big enough to allow it to take its proper share of this very rapidly expanding air transport market?

Mr. Jay

Yes, that is my information. The present short-term difficulty has arisen because certain faults were discovered in the Boeings in the course of last year and there had to be an emergency programme to put these right. It is hoped that this will now be completed by the middle of May, and I understand that B.O.A.C. is likely to have all services operating by approximately 19th May.

9. Mr. Ian Lloyd asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has any outstanding requests from the British Overseas Airways Corporation for permission to purchase Boeing 707–320C aircraft; how many such aircraft have already been sanctioned for purchase by the Corporation; and what conditions have been laid down regarding their use for passenger or freight traffic.

Mr. Jay

The purchase of three Boeing 707–320C freighters has been sanctioned. B.O.A.C. proposes to use the third, which is due to be delivered in November 1967, for passenger service for a temporary period.

Mr. Lloyd

Is the House to take it that the Minister is now directly contradicting the statement made by the Government in March last year on this type of aircraft, and have we an assurance that the continuing dependence on Boeing and "jumbo" jet type of aircraft is not to go on indefinitely?

Mr. Jay

No, Sir; there is no contradiction between what I have just said and what was said previously.

10. Mr. Ian Lloyd asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will refuse to waive the duty on any Boeing 707–320C aircraft purchased by the British Overseas Airways Corporation which may be used for carrying passengers as well as freight; and whether he will rescind the waiver of duty on any such aircraft originally purchased for the carriage of freight only but which may now be used partly for the carriage of passengers.

Mr. Jay

Applications will be considered on their merits in accordance with the law. I am not aware of any intention to change the use of aircraft which have already been imported.

Mr. Lloyd

Does the President of the Board of Trade realise that this will do nothing to reassure those who believe that in this, as in so many other spheres, the Government seize every opportunity to discriminate, on duty matters particularly, between public and private enterprise?

Mr. Jay

No, Sir; there is no discrimination whatever between publicly and privately owned aircraft. We take these decisions purely on the basis of the type and function of the aircraft in accordance with the law which I have to follow.

Mr. R. Carr

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that it is still the policy of the Government that the waiver of duty to B.O.A.C. is conditional, based upon the specific understanding that these aircraft will not be used for anything but cargo purposes?

Mr. Jay

It depends on whether the aircraft is a cargo or passenger aircraft. If they were to be used for a different purpose, that would be something which we should have to consider.

Sir A. V. Harvey

The original Boeings ordered for freighters were ordered with windows, with the clear intention that they would come in for passenger use. Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that this will not be allowed in future?

Mr. Jay

My information is that there is no intention to use these two aircraft for anything except cargo services.

32. Mr. Hastings asked the President of the Board of Trade what losses have been incurred by the nationalised airways corporations as a result of purchases of United States aircraft.

Mr. Jay

I am not aware of any losses which can be so attributed.

Mr. Hastings

What about the modifications which we have been talking about this afternoon? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that B.O.A.C. has refused point blank to give the Press the cost of these modifications to the Boeing 707, for instance? What are they? Is it the terminal fin? Is it the engine nascelles? Is there corrosion, or is there not? Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that under the present rules of order it is almost impossible to get at the facts and that there is a great deal of misgiving about the conduct of affairs at B.O.A.C. and—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Questions must be reasonably brief.

Mr. J. T. Price

On a point of order. Is it in order for hon. Members at Question Time to direct questions to my right hon. Friend and his colleagues on matters of the day-to-day administration of nationalised industries about which a Minister is not responsible to answer at the Box?

Mr. Speaker

The Minister has power in his own hands to answer or not.

Mr. Hastings

In view of the difficulty of getting at the facts, will the right hon. Gentleman consider a debate—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."]—on B.O.A.C. at an early date?

Mr. Jay

The hon. Gentleman seems to be as unfamiliar with the facts of civil aviation as he is with the rules of the House. There have been certain faults—

Mr. Ridley

On a point of order. Can you say in what way my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Hastings) has transgressed the rules of order, Mr. Speaker? If not, will you direct the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw that offensive remark?

Mr. Speaker

We are not going to have debates on how Ministers answer.

Sir Knox Cunningham

On a point of order. Are not the rules of order in the House for Mr. Speaker and not for any Minister, however distinguished he might think he is?

Mr. Speaker

That applies to the hon. and learned Gentleman, too, I think.

Mr. Burden

On a point of order.

Mr. Speaker

I deprecate points of order during Question Time.

Mr. Burden

On a point of order. In the commotion, I think that the Minister forgot to answer the question.

Mr. Speaker

That is quite possible