Rhodesia

HC Deb 27 June 1967 vol 749 cc229-35

2. Mr. Wall

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the reopening of talks with Rhodesia.

11. Mr. Edward M. Taylor

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement on the situation in Rhodesia.

15. Mr. Channon

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs what plans he now has for seeking a negotiated settlement with the illegal Rhodesian régime.

37. Mr. James Johnson

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement about the situation in Rhodesia following the visit of Lord Alport as official investigator for Her Majesty's Government.

The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Herbert W. Bowden)

I have nothing to add to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 13th June.

Mr. Wall

When does the Secretary of State expect Lord Alport to report? Can he define a little more clearly the Prime Minister's statement that he would be prepared to reconsider N.I.B.M.A.R. if there were substantial and guaranteed changes in circumstances?

Mr. Bowden

In reply to the second part of the hon. Member's supplementary question, I do not think that there would be any advantage whatever in trying at this stage to spell out hypothetical circumstances. At present, it is difficult to see them. In reply to the first part, I think that Lord Aiport will probably take two to three weeks.

Mr. Taylor

If, as seams likely and as we hope, the Government have abandoned N.I.B.M.A.R. as a prior condition of settlement, is it not better to say so clearly so that those who are anxious to promote a settlement can create the right circumstances?

Mr. Bowden

If Her Majesty's Government had abandoned N.I.B.M.A.R., I agree that it would be better to say so. We have not abandoned N.I.B.M.A.R.

Mr. Johnson

Bearing in mind the past behaviour of Mr. Smith and the language which he has used about our Prime Minister, will my right hon. Friend give a firm assurance that Lord Alport will be collecting the voices, so to speak, and will not be acting in any capacity whatever as a backstairs negotiator?

Mr. Bowden

It has already been made clear that Lord Alport is not in any way negotiating. He is engaged in what might be regarded as a reconnaissance.

Mr. Maudling

The question of N.I.B.M.A.R. is not entirely as hypothetical as the Secretary of State has suggested. Can he make it absolutely clear that it is no longer the Government's policy to adhere, whatever may come, to N.I.B.M.A.R. in spite of the effect that it might have on a solution?

Mr. Bowden

The policy has been made clear by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that, in the event of considerably changed circumstances, we would come back to the House, which gave an undertaking about N.I.B.M.A.R., and to the Commonwealth.

Mr. William Hamilton

Can my right hon. Friend repeat the Government's adherence to N.I.B.M.A.R., without qualification?

Hon. Members

No.

Mr. Bowden

I have said that N.I.B.M.A.R. remains the Government's policy.

5. Mr. Edward M. Taylor

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs if he is satisfied with the extent to which the policy of sanctions against Rhodesia is being observed by other countries; and if he will make a statement.

29. Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs whether, in view of the fact that exports to Rhodesia of those members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and development for whom figures are so far available were running at the same level in the first quarter of 1967 as in the corresponding period of 1966, he is satisfied with the operation of the United Nations embargo; and if he will make a statement.

The Minister of State for Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. George Thomas)

Mandatory sanctions opertions operate primarily against Rhodesia's major exports, and apply only to a few specified items among its imports. Their effectiveness in reducing the country's earnings of foreign exchange has been shown by the steps the illegal régime have had to take in order to control imports and over such matters as the size of next year's tobacco crop. The means whereby they can be made more effective are constantly under review. In particular, where there is evidence of possible evasions of sanctions this is drawn to the attention of the appropriate Governments.

Mr. Taylor

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that British sanctions do not apply to just a small number of items? Do not the trade figures recently published make it obvious that our competitors are using the sanctions as a means of stealing our markets?

Mr. Thomas

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. Quite frankly, when we have a policy of sanctions, difficulties such as those which he mentions are bound to occur.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

As the Government have admitted, is it not a fact that there has been a substantial increase in the export of cars, which are clearly covered by the United Nations embargo, from such countries as the Netherlands, Japan and France? Is it not obvious that our competitors are grabbing our market and, in our parlous balance of payments position, can we afford this?

Mr. Thomas

The hon. Gentleman takes subjects and figures which suit his argument. I do not blame him for doing so, because I do it myself from time to time. However, we do our case no good —either the case which the hon. Gentleman advances or the case which the House has decided to advance—by distorting or exaggerating the figures.

Mr. John Lee

If any of the allegations are true, are Her Majesty's Government making representations to the countries which are offending against this, and with what result?

Mr. Thomas

Yes. Sir. Where we have evidence of an increase in trade, representations are made, and are made with effect.

Mr. Maudling

Recent figures have shown that French sales in Rhodesia are up by 100 per cent. and that German sales are up by more than 40 per cent. What, in practice, are the Government doing about this?

Mr. Thomas

First of all, the right hon. Gentleman ought to know that, if he looks at the French figures in detail, in 1967 they show a declining trend. I would expect him to be pleased by that. Secondly, we cannot be responsible for the French Government.

Mr. David Steel

Since the hon. Gentleman said that the Government are considering ways of making sanctions more effective, could they be extended to cover telecommunications and passports?

Mr. Thomas

My right hon. Friend will be dealing further with sanctions in other Questions today.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the totally unsatisfactory nature of the hon. Gentleman's replies, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

10. Mr. Evelyn King

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs by how much the consumer price index has risen in Rhodesia during 1966.

Mr. Bowden

The only available figures are those published by the Central Statistical Office in Salisbury. According to those figures, the European Index on the basis of 100 at January, 1962, rose from 107…5 for the last quarter of 1965 to 110…2 for the last quarter of 1966. The African Index, on the basis of 100 at September, 1965, rose from 100.8 in 1965 to 103…1 in 1966.

I am unable to confirm the accuracy of these figures.

Mr. King

Does not that Answer indicate the total and blank ignorance of the right hon. Gentleman about what is happening in Rhodesia? Can he any longer contend that we are the legal Government of Rhodesia when it is clear that we are impotent to govern and are not even trying to govern? Ought we not to govern in fact or get out?

Mr. Bowden

I shall endeavour to assist the hon. Gentleman by quoting some figures given by the so-called Ministers of the illegal régime. The so-called Minister of Finance stated on 17th April that the increase in prices for vehicles and vehicle spares was 11…2 per cent.; it was 10…6 per cent. for drink and tobacco, and 5…9 per cent. for foodstuffs. The so-called Minister of Commerce and Industry has set up a committee to look into the question of overcharging and profiteering.

12. Mr. Biffen

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs if he will detail the evidence he has of the effect of sanctions on economic and political conditions in Rhodesia.

Mr. Bowden

The economic effects of sanctions have been clearly demonstrated by such measures as the illegal régime's reductions on import quotas and in the figure set for the next tobacco crop. As regards political conditions in Rhodesia, I think it will be best to await consideration of Lord Alport's report.

Mr. Biffen

Whatever may have been the economic consequence of sanctions, is it not now clear that the political reality of power lies with Mr. Ian Smith, and should not the Government adjust their policies accordingly?

Mr. Bowden

I would not agree that political power rests with Mr. Smith. This is one of the things which Lord Alport has to confirm, or find out what the actual position is. It is not clear that Mr. Smith would today be in a position to negotiate if negotiations started. This is one reason for Lord Alport's visit.

Mr. Orme

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that, in relation to the tobacco position in Rhodesia, sanctions are beginning to bite, and great concern is being shown by the Government there, and therefore many of us on this side urge the British Government to maintain, and if necessary increase, the sanctions?

Mr. Bowden

I do not want to weary the House with figures—there are many of them—but an additional one from the régime confirms that exports dropped by £60 million in 1966 and imports were reduced by £35…6 million.

Mr. Wall

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how it is that in the first quarter of this year exports from certain major European countries to Rhodesia increased from 62 per cent. to 100 per cent., and from South Africa by 33 to 110 per cent.?

Mr. Bowden

No, Sir, I cannot explain those detailed changes, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman, and I am sure he will be delighted about this, that we are getting full co-operation from foreign Powers when we draw to their attention breaches in the sanctions wall.

Mr. Molloy

Will my right hon. Friend acknowledge that he has had two conflicting pieces of advice from hon. Gentlemen opposite? The hon. Member for Dorset, South (Mr. Evelyn King) asked him to do something as the responsible Government of Rhodesia, while the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen)—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Questions must be brief.

Mr. Molloy

Will my right hon. Friend take the unanimous advice from this side of the House, which is designed to bring this illegal régime to an end, and end all the difficulties for many other countries which wish to support decency and sanity in the world?

Mr. Bowden

I hear advice from many quarters on how to handle the Rhodesian position. I do not always take notice of all of it.