HC Deb 21 June 1967 vol 748 cc1629-35

10.5 a.m.

The Minister of Transport (Mrs. Barbara Castle)

The Reports on "Cars for Cities" and on "Better Use of Town Roads" which have been submitted to me are now available to hon. Members and will be on sale tomorrow. Hon. Members will wish to study them carefully, but it may be helpful to the House if I now give my preliminary reactions to the main conclusions.

Both Reports are concerned with working out further the implications of the Buchanan Report on "Traffic in Towns". They deal with two different aspects of the measures which are needed if we are to enjoy the maximum benefit from motor vehicles without destroying the whole environment in which we live.

In presenting the Smeed Report to Parliament on 10th June, 1964, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) indicated that further studies into methods of traffic restraint were desirable. These studies were, in fact, commissioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Tom Fraser) through a group of Government and local authority officials and senior officers of police. Their findings are incorporated in the Report "Better Use of Town Roads" which analyses measures which can be taken in the short and medium term to combat the growth of traffic congestion.

The study entitled "Cars for Cities" was commissioned by the right hon. Member for Wallasey and approaches the problem from the other end; how can we design cars and other motor vehicles which can be used in our towns more conveniently and yet with less damage to the urban environment. From these Reports, it is clear that we need a policy with three elements in relation to urban traffic. First, we have got to expand the capacity of our urban road system in the coming years. A larger proportion of the resources available for expenditure on roads will have to be spent on urban road construction. I have already announced substantial urban road programmes which are in preparation for the early 1970s.

But demonstrably, the amount which we can afford to spend on urban roads is going to be far less than would be needed to accommodate all the traffic trying to use them. In any event the Buchanan Report demonstrated that this would be physically impossible. We must therefore also take steps to see that we relate the amount of traffic circulating in our towns to the capacity of the road system. The Report on the "Better Use of Town Roads" discusses ways of doing this.

The Report rejects the idea of wholesale bans on cars in town centres. I entirely agree with this view. The Report also confirms the view expressed by the right hon. Member for Wallasey, when he presented the Smeed Report, that over the next few years comprehensive parking policies would make a substantial contribution to controlling the growth of congestion. This is clearly right. The Report concludes that in the longer term the most effective way of relating traffic to the capacity of urban roads would be a form of road pricing in congested areas. I have already announced that we are undertaking further studies on this.

Responsibility for traffic management and, in particular, comprehensive parking policies, must rest with local authorities. In the Transport Bill, which I hope to introduce next Session, I shall place positive duties upon local authorities in these fields.

The "Cars for Cities" study was commissioned to advise on future trends in the design of power-driven road vehicles with particular reference to their use in towns. The study was under the general direction of a steering group headed by Lord Kings Norton with a membership that included the motor manufacturing industry and road user organisations. The Report is concerned with what might be done over the next 20 to 25 years to design vehicles of all kinds which would be more suitable for use in towns than the present ones. In particular, the Report shows that it will be possible to design small, specialised cars intended specifically for use in towns; and that these would reduce both the road space and the parking space needed for cars. But the Report also shows that the full benefits from using small, specialised cars can only be secured if they are segregated from larger vehicles.

Obviously the demand for new specialised city cars will depend to a large extent on what advantages their owners would gain from using them. One approach would be to see whether, by segregated parking for small cars, we could make it easier and cheaper to park small cars in towns. I am in touch with one or two local authorities to see if we can arrange practical experiments in segregated parking for existing small cars which will be a guide to what could be done with even smaller vehicles.

Segregation of road space for specialised city cars could range from setting aside existing streets or parts of streets for them in constructing new roadways which would probably, in town centres, need to take the form of light elevated roadways. All these ideas raise substantial problems of practical application. In particular, my Advisory Committee on Urban Research and Development was considerably disturbed at the possible effect of even a light elevated road network on the environment of our town centres. Moreover, we have to consider how far it would be right to divert resources from the improvement of our general purpose road network in towns to the construction of a segregated network for city cars. Nevertheless, it is clear that the benefits of segregation are such that we ought to have, as the Report recommends, a practical examination of the problems involved. This I have set on foot.

The Report also makes suggestions about taxis, buses and goods vehicles, which I am following up. It also considers other features of vehicles for town use in terms of increasing safety, reducing noise and lessening air pollution from exhaust gases. In all these fields I am considering policy and the recommendations of the Report are valuable back- ground. In particular, draft regulations on noise will be circulated in the next few days.

I am grateful to all who have contributed to these practical and imaginative Reports.

Mr. Webster

I join the right hon. Lady in thanking those who produced these Reports and congratulate her on having copies placed in the Vote Office just before her statement. When there are extremely urgent matters concerning British Railways, we are surprised that no statement has been made on those much more serious problems. Is the right hon. Lady aware that we will wish to consider this and to have an early debate so that we can discover her intentions about providing adequate capacity in cities or traffic, and that pools are no substitute for roads themselves?

Although it seemed reluctant, we welcomed her statement that she does not accept a wholesale ban on the private motor car in cities. Is she aware of the great urgency here? There is always reference to further committees and councils, but complete urgency is required and the appointment of a traffic commissioner or someone with individual responsibility would be a great step forward in making our cities more fit for people to drive in.

Mrs. Castle

Of course, the Reports were available in the Vote Office at 9 o'clock this morning for the assistance of hon. Members. I followed the same practice as was followed in the case of the Buchanan Report. I am only too happy for us to explore together these important and difficult problems, but the hon. Gentleman knows that a debate is a subject for the usual channels and not for me. With regard to the banning of cars in town centres, I have always made it clear that there is no question of that, because there are purposes and occasions for which the use of the private car, even in city centres, is entirely appropriate.

In this policy of examining how we can cope with this growing urban congestion, all Ministers of Transport, including my two predecessors, my right hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Tom Fraser) and the right hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples), have been driven by the sheer objective facts to the same sort of studies and conclusions that we are following.

Mr. Galbraith

The right hon. Lady said that she does not intend to ban motor cars from city centres—although this is perhaps a change of opinion from the time that she arrived late to open a school at Kidbrooke—but does she not intend to license motor cars coming into the centres? Could she give that undertaking? I mean not the normal tax licence but one which would prevent them coming into city centres.

With regard to the proposals for the light elevated roadways, has she any idea of the result in terms not only of increase in speed on the new roads themselves but, also because the traffic would be taken off them—the improvement on the old ones, particularly in relation to buses?

Mrs. Castle

I repeat that there has never been, by me or anyone else, a statement that we should ban cars from city centres. I have no proposals at present for supplementary licensing. We have by no means exhausted all the possibilities of more effectively administered parking controls and we are all agreed that that is the immediate best step to relieve congestion in town centres. I am afraid that I could not give an answer about the effect of segregation on the speed of existing roads. It would depend very much on how complete or extensive the segregation was.

Therefore, these are some of the practical problems with which it is difficult to deal theoretically, which is why we must have some more practical probing about what is implied in the far-eaching concept of the special city car on the specially segregated road.

Mr. Heseltine

One of the most forceful impressions which one gains from the very few minutes' study which we have been able to have of the Report "Better Use of Town Roads" is the Minister's words in the foreword, in which she refers, in dealing with the question—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Questions must be asked.

Mr. Heseltine

I apologise, Mr. Speaker. I was prefacing a question. Prompt action is needed in dealing with this. The Report, in conclusion 5, deals with parking, and I would ask the Minister whether she agrees with its statement: Control over the use of publicly available parking space might not be enough"—

Mr. Sepaker

Order. We cannot have quotations. The hon. Gentleman must ask the Minister some questions.

Mr. Heseltine

I apologise, Mr. Speaker.

Does the right hon. Lady agree that control over the publicly available public space might not be enough and ought to be extended, as outlined in conclusion 5? What progress is being made at the Road Research Laboratory with the experiments in the attempt to find a road pricing mechanism, as referred to in conclusion 9? Finally, in the Report "Cars for Cities", great stress is put on the advantage of a possibly much smaller car. Has the right hon. Lady any plans for such a unit? If so, in conjunction with which organisations?

Mrs. Castle

To take the last question first, as I am a little confused by the earlier ones, it would not be for me to develop the small car. Motor manufacturers were strongly represented on the steering group of the "Cars for Cities" working party and it was on the basis of their industrial advice that the Report concluded that it was possible to design a specialised car. It would be a matter of commercial judgment whether its production was worth while and that, clearly, would be influenced by the extent to which one was able to attach advantages to the ownership of such a car. As I said, the advantages would be related both to parking and to segregation of road space. That is why I said that both these matters should be probed more fully.

Mr. Hooley

Would my right hon. Friend agree that the problem of traffic in towns is closely linked with the concentration of employment in city centres, since the one journey which people must make is to and from work? Is this aspect of location of offices and industry in towns being specially considered in relation to this problem?

Mrs. Castle

Certainly it has been considered by the Government. This is why we have had the control over office development in London and in other big cities, but clearly we shall never solve the transport problems in our big cities independently of town planning as a whole, including office location, the siting of industry and the siting of residential areas. I attach very great importance to planning procedures as an aid to solving our transport problems.

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