HC Deb 07 June 1967 vol 747 cc1039-45
8. Mr. Mawby

asked the Minister of Transport what is her budgeted estimate of the expenditure on those roads already stated by her to be in the preparation pool for the county of Devon for the year ending 31st March, 1968.

10. Mr. Ridley

asked the Minister of Transport what is her budgeted estimate of expenditure upon those roads already stated by her to be in the preparation pool for the county of Gloucestershire for the year ending 31st March, 1968.

11. Mr. Grieve

asked the Minister of Transport what is her budgeted estimate of expenditure upon those roads already stated by her to be in the preparation pool for the county of Warwick for the year ending 31st March, 1968.

14. Sir S. McAdden

asked the Minister of Transport what is her budgeted estimate of expenditure upon those roads already stated by her to be in the preparation pool for the county of Essex for the year ending 31st March, 1968.

15. Mr. Jennings

asked the Minister of Transport what is her budgeted estimate of expenditure upon those roads already stated by her to be in the preparation pool for the county of Staffordshire for the year ending 31st March. 1968.

17. Mr. Peyton

asked the Minister of Transport what is her budgeted estimate of expenditure upon those roads already stated by her to be in the preparation pool for the county of Somerset for the year ending 31st March, 1968.

18. Captain W. Elliot

asked the Minister of Transport what is her budgeted estimate of expenditure upon those roads already stated by her to be in the preparation pool for the county of Surrey for the year ending 31st March, 1968.

19. Mr. Walters

asked the Minister of Transport what is her estimate of expenditure for those roads announced as being in the preparation pool for the county of Wiltshire for the year ending 31st March, 1968.

21. Mr. Crouch

asked the Minister of Transport what is her budgeted estimate of expenditure upon those roads already stated by her to be in the preparation pool for the county of Kent for the year ending 31st March, 1968.

23. Mr. Holland

asked the Minister of Transport what is her budgeted expenditure upon those roads already stated by her to be in the preparation pool for the county of Nottingham for the year ending 31st March. 1968.

25. Mr. More

asked the Minister of Transport what is her budgeted estimate of expenditure upon those roads already stated by her to be in the preparation pool for the county of Shropshire for the year ending 31st March, 1968.

28. Mr. Alison

asked the Minister of Transport what is her budgeted estimate of expenditure upon those roads already stated by her to be in the preparation pool for the West Riding of Yorkshire for the year ending 31st March, 1968.

Mr. Rippon

asked the Minister of Transport what is her budgeted estimate of expenditure upon those roads already stated by her to be in the preparation pool for the county of Northumberland for the year ending 31st March, 1968.

Mr. Peel

asked the Minister of Transport what is her estimate of expenditure upon those roads already stated by her to be in the preparation pool for the county of Leicester for the year ending 31st March, 1968.

Mr. Swingler

As was clearly explained in the announcement of 21st February, schemes in the preparation pool will be considered for inclusion in the trunk road works programme for the early 1970s, as and when the preparatory work on them is sufficiently advanced. As regards the costs of preparation, the sums to be spent on individual schemes during this preparatory period are relatively small and not readily separable.

There will, of course, continue to be some current expenditure on the maintenance of the trunk roads affected by schemes in the preparation pool and there may, in some cases, be expenditure on small improvements. Separate estimates of this expenditure attributable to the individual sections of trunk roads to be improved or relieved by schemes in the preparation pool are not readily available.

Mr. Mawby

Does not that answer suggest that the right hon. Lady should now stop making these great statements of the amount of money going into the pool and so giving the impression that we have a big road-building programme? In how many years' time shall we have been able to get back to the point which we lost by the reduction in the road programme by the right hon. Lady in 1966? Those are the points to which the hon. Gentleman should apply himself.

Mr. Swingler

The answer is, "No, Sir." I commend to the hon. Member a study of the Lofthouse Reports. If he fundamentally disagrees with them in thinking that we do not need better forward planning and programming of the road schemes, perhaps he would let me know. On the subject of the size of the programme, he may know that in this financial year we have the biggest road programme the country has ever had.

Mr. Ridley

Is the Minister aware that since the pipeline is now choked up it is only natural that he should invent a preparation pool to feed it from? When will he think up a bottomless pit to feed that from, and in which all Socialist dreams can be conveniently buried?

Mr. Swingler

I am sorry to repeat myself. I commend to the hon. Gentleman also a study of the Lofthouse Reports, by those who have examined the matter and recommended to my right hon. Friend—recommendations which she has accepted—better and longer-term preparation of road construction schemes in order that we may get a more flexible system of committing them year by year.

Mr. Holland

Would the Minister agree that a road is a road when it is ready for use? Can he be a little more specific about a starting date for construction on the roads? My own interest is in Nottinghamshire, where there are great needs for better and safer roads than we have at present. We have some very dangerous roads in Nottinghamshire now.

Mr. Swingler

The hon. Member will realise that there is a definite and firm programme of schemes up to 1970–71. What my right hon. Friend has done by the system of the preparation pool is to start the preparation of those schemes that are clearly desirable well in advance of the date when they will be committed, in order that we have a reservoir of prepared schemes in the early 1970s.

Mr. Alison

Does the Minister appreciate that for all he has said about forward planning, his Department has not done anything about the problem of Ml ending in Leeds in a cul-de-sac, without any satisfactory road to take through-traffic to the North? When is he going to do something about that?

Mr. Swingler

If the hon. Gentleman had put that Question down, I would naturally supply him with the answers. If hon. Members put down Questions about specific sections on our roads we shall certainly supply an answer, but we do not think that time and labour would be justified in producing separate accounts for every section of roads affected by schemes in the pool.

Mr. Hamling

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Opposition are carrying on a foolish campaign, as there is record expenditure on roads this year, and that if he or my right hon. Friend did not give advance information they would be the first to complain?

Mr. Swingler

If my hon. Friend is right and the Opposition are trying to carrying on a campaign designed to show that the road programme is not expanding, they are flying in the face of the facts.

Mr. Webster

In view of the previous Minister's statement when launching the preparation pool on 29th April, 1965, that this could be for a definite period of time—not more than eight years after 1970 at the outside—and in view of the 1965 deferment and the cuts of last year, do those figures still stand firm?

Mr. Swingler

The figures that have been given, of course, stand firm. The preparation pool is something which my right hon. Friend has adopted as a result of "Little Neddy" reports—which hon. Members opposite apparently have not read—examining the techniques of road construction, and showing the need to plan and prepare road construction schemes much further ahead. This is the basic purpose of the preparation pool.

Mr. Edwin Wainwright

Does my hon. Friend realise that, in spite of the heavy amount of money being spent on roads today, it is insufficient owing to the tremendous backlog which the Conservative Government left this Government? Would he make certain that more money is spent?

Mr. Swingler

My hon. Friend is correct when he is contemplating the fact that only 12 years ago State expenditure on the road programme under a Conservative Government was less than £10 million per annum and this year it will be over £230 million.

Mr. William Hamilton

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do not want to delay proceedings at this point, but I should like to give notice that at 3.30 I shall raise the question of principle concerning the deliberate collusion by hon. Members opposite.

Mr. Speaker

I hope that we shall not pursue it at this moment.

Later—

Mr. Hamilton

I wish to raise a point of order on the matter which arose out of the Minister's answering Question No. 8 and about a dozen other Questions together.

A cursory examination of all these Questions shows that there has been a concerted campaign by a dozen or so Conservative Members to monopolise the greater part of Question Hour to the detriment of other hon. Members. You may recall, Mr. Speaker, that on a previous occasion I was accused of a similar campaign. At that time, your predecessor announced the steps which he would take in the exercise of his discretion to prevent an abuse of that kind.

I would ask you, Sir, to exercise your discretion on this occasion to prevent a repetition of this kind of abuse. Otherwise, counter-measures are bound to be taken by some of us on this side of the House.

Mr. Speaker

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for postponing his point of order until the end of Question Time. This gave an hon. Member an opportunity of having the Question answered which would not have been answered if we had taken up the time of Question Hour on a point of order.

I am interested in the historical reminiscences of the hon. Member. I have to strike a balance between the legitimate claims of both sides of the House and groups of hon. Members on both sides of the House to press rather vigorously at Question Time a point which they wish to make, either separately or concertedly, and the very serious matter which the hon. Gentleman has raised of a campaign reaching such a degree that it would monopolise Question Time.

I had those points in mind when I looked at the number of Questions—I think that it was 12 or 13—asked of the Minister of Transport on very similar lines. I do always keep these considerations in mind.