HC Deb 26 July 1967 vol 751 cc815-8

Lords Amendment: No. 38, in page 23, line 26, at end insert: and where it is of that opinion the court shall state its reasons.

Miss Bacon

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Dilhorne, in the House of Lords. If a court deals with a suspended sentence otherwise than under Clause 31(1,a), the Amendment requires the court to state its reasons for deciding why it would be unjust to order the suspended sentence to take effect.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to.

Lords Amendment: No. 41, in page 23, line 32, at end insert: () Where under subsection (1) (a) or (b) of this section a court orders that a suspended sentence shall take effect with a term of not more than six months and the court would have had power to sentence the offender to be detained in a detention centre for that term if it had convicted him of the original offence on the occasion of the order, the order may include a direction that he shall serve the sentence in a detention centre. () Without prejudice to the last foregoing subsection, where under the said subsection (1)(a) or (b) a court orders that a suspended sentence shall take effect with a term of less than three months, the court may include such a direction in the order if the offender is then liable to be detained in a detention centre by virtue of an order or warrant made or issued by that or another court. () An order under the said subsection (1)(a) or (b) which includes such a direction shall be treated for all purposes as an order under section 4 of the Criminal Justice Act 1961 (detention of offenders aged fourteen to twenty) for the detention of the offender in a detention centre, and subsection (2) of this section shall not apply in relation to any such order. () In proceedings for dealing with an offender in respect of a suspended sentence which take place before a court of assize or quarter sessions any question whether the offender has been convicted of an offence punishable with imprisonment committed during the operational period of the suspended sentence shall be determined by the court and not by the verdict of a jury. () Where a court deals with an offender under this section in respect of a suspended sentence the clerk of the court shall notify the clerk of the court which passed the sentence of the method adopted.

Miss Bacon

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

It adds five new subsections to Clause 31, the first three of which enable a court which orders a suspended sentence to be executed to decide that, in appropriate cases, that sentence shall be served in a detention centre.

The first new subsection is rather technical and provides that, if there is a dispute at a court of assize or quarter sessions about whether an offender has been convicted of an offence punishable by imprisonment committed during the operationable period of a suspended sentence, the issue shall be determined by a court and not by the verdict of a jury.

The fourth new subsection is one which has been suggested by the Justices' Clerks' Society, and it provides that, where a court deals with a suspended sentence, it shall notify the court which passed the suspended sentence. It enables a court to keep a check on the subsequent performance of an offender on whom it has passed a suspended sentence.

Sir D. Renton

Can we have some further explanation of the first of the new subsections which it is proposed to add to Clause 31? No doubt, it is sensible and right in principle, but I want to know how it will work out.

If I understand the right hon. Lady correctly, the position contemplated by the subsection is one where the original court which awarded the suspended sentence which was not to come into operation until other events occurred, awarded a sentence of so many months' imprisonment, and that the court to which the offender is brought for the suspended sentence to be put into operation decides that imprisonment would not be appropriate, but that detention in a detention centre would be.

The question which arises is what length of sentence in a detention centre will that later court impose? Will it have a discretion to impose a shorter sentence than the sentence of imprisonment might have been, or will it be bound to say that the sentence in the detention centre shall be for exactly the same term? This is important because, owing to the very nature of treatment in a detention centre, sentences to detention tend to be shorter than sentences in prison might have been for equivalent offences. I wonder if the right hon. Lady can clarify this position.

Dame Irene Ward

In replying to my right hon. and learned Friend, can the right hon. Lady say what is to happen if there is no detention centre? I get rather tired of listening to talk about detention centres, remand centres and the whole paraphernalia of what would be perfect in a perfect administration, but we all know if we have to deal with these matters, though it may not be so apparent to Ministers in the Home Office, that in many cases there are neither detention centres nor remand centres. What is the point of passing legislation if the administrative machinery is not there to put it into effect?

Miss Bacon

With the leave of the House, I will reply to those points. The hon. Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) has drawn attention to the shortage of detention centres and remand centres. I hope that I shall be in order in replying to that and saying that the provision for remand centres was first made in the Criminal Justice Act, 1948, and the previous Government opened the first remand centre 13 years later in 1961. If only we had had more action during those years, we should have been in a much better position with regard to the availability of remand centres.

The right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton) asked about tie respective terms. Perhaps I might direct his attention to the Bill. He will see in Clause 31(1,b) that the second court's discretion about the term is the same. It may order that the sentence shall take effect with the substitution of a lesser term for the original term. I hope that that answers the right hon. and learned Gentleman's question.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to.