BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (Hansard, 11 July 1967)

§ The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Richard Crossman)
With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a short business statement.
As the House will already have seen from the Order Paper, the business for today has been rearranged so that after the debate in Supply on the Care of the Elderly consideration of the Prices and Incomes (No. 2) Bill will be resumed, followed by the Motion on the Prices and Incomes Act, 1966 (Commencement of Part II) Order.
Consideration of the Greenwich Hospital Bill is being postponed.

§ Mr. Heath
Would it be true to say that the Leader of the House has got into something of a muddle over business as well as over the Government's policy on prices and incomes? When the right hon. Gentleman announced the business last Thursday I warned him that it was impossible to get it yesterday. He then revised on Friday, made his notorious speech on Sunday, and issued a fresh version on Monday. As a result, the House sat for 19 hours 10 minutes and he still has not got his business.
Would it not be more sensible, instead of persisting in having an all-night sitting 426 tomorrow, to rearrange business for tomorrow afternoon so as to take this Bill at a sensible hour and have the Companies Bill later—which can be done perfectly well?
Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that he is putting an intolerable strain on all sections of activity in the House with morning sittings, all-day sittings and all-night sittings? We are to have another all-night sitting tonight and another on Thursday. Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the strain on you, Mr. Speaker, and other occupants of the Chair, as well as upon the servants of the House and hon. Members, is rapidly becoming unreasonable?
I ask the Leader of the House not to persist in this folly, but to rearrange business sensibly and to take this Bill tomorrow.

§ Mr. Crossman
Naturally, I always consider carefully the suggestions of the Leader of the Opposition. The House has a clear choice. A great effort is being made—and I think it can be done—to get the House up for the Summer Recess in a reasonable time. It would be possible to change our plans and to take an extra week. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh"] That is something which we will consider. What I say to the Leader of the Opposition is that this week—because, for special reasons, we have to get the Prices and Incomes Bill through rapidly—we must abide by the business that we have decided upon.

§ Mr. Heath
It is plain that if the Leader of the House wishes to get the Bill through rapidly the question' of sitting into August, for another week, and extending business does not arise. It would be quite possible to take this business tomorrow afternoon and to take the Companies Bill after the Recess, if necessary. It has been through the Lords, and can be completed in the spill-over before the new Session. Why not allow the House to be sensible and take the Prices and Incomes Bill at a reasonable hour tomorrow, as I am sure most of the right hon. Gentleman's back benchers want, because most of the Amendments to the Bill are in their names?

§ Mr. Crossman
The right hon. Member knows that if we were to do as he suggests, 427 and postpone business it would possibly mean having to sit a week later. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] The right hon. Gentleman knows more than some back benchers about the organisation of business. Therefore, I say that on the whole, because of special reasons concerned with the Bill, we must get on and finish it as soon as possible.

§ Mr. Woodburn
Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a general impression that the custom of the House is changing and that on Report hon. Members are insisting on putting down and rediscussing Amendments which were fully discussed in Committee. That was done on the Agriculture Bill and on other Bills. They are making a farce of the Report stage by repeating the Committee stage all over again.

§ Mr. Crossman
I am aware that recently the Report stages of Bills have tended to take a long time. Nevertheless, I would have thought that that was something which hon. Members on our side were at least as responsible for, on this occasion, as hon. Members opposite.

§ Dr. Winstanley
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the debate which is to precede tonight's all-night sitting, namely, the debate on the care of the elderly, is not without relevance to some hon. Members? Is he not sensible of the intolerable strain to which he is subjecting some of those hon. Members by insisting on their taking part in four all-night sittings this week?

§ Mr. Crossman
It is not a question of four all-night sittings this week. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is"] It is not. I am aware of the strain. I realise that we have this strain every July. This July we have a very great strain, because we are getting a great deal of business through—and we are determined to get it through.

§ Mr. Shinwell
On a point of order. In view of the reflection cast upon some hon. and right hon. Members, may I say that the elderly are quite capable of taking care of themselves?

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. When reference was made to the elderly I did not think that it referred to the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell).

§ Sir D. Walker-Smith
Although the right hon.Gentleman may be indifferent to public criticism of his personal reputation as Leader of the House—on the no doubt justifiable ground that it stands so low already that it cannot go lower—does not he appreciate that something much more—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. Questions should be reasonably brief, with a brief preamble.

§ Sir D. Walker-Smith
Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that something much more important is involved, namely, the tendency to bring all business of the House of Commons into disrepute if it is carried on in this muddled and unbusinesslike way?

§ Mr. Crossman
We ought to look at this summer in perspective. We have had the Finance Bill through, for instance, I think without a single all-night sitting. Before I came to the House this afternoon I looked at the list of sittings during the last year of Conservative Government, in 1963, which showed that, after June, they had 11 late-night sittings—[HoN. MEMBERS: "No morning sittings"] We are getting the facts about all-night sittings now. They had 11 late-night sittings at that time and we shall be very unlucky if we have as many as 11 this time.

§ Mr. Fowler
Is my right hon. Friend aware that, whatever his recent successes in arranging business, many of the Government's most loyal supporters regard the arrangements for this week as quite unsatisfactory? Many, if not the majority, of us would much rather go a week into August.

§ Mr. Crossman
This is certainly something which we shall take into consideration in arranging business, but we must ensure that we fully understand what this implies.

§ Mr. Longden
Is it not a fact that one of the major objects of morning sittings was to get us to bed earlier, and that, since we began them, we have sat later and more often than ever before?

§ Mr. Crossman
The answer to the first part of that question is "Yes", and to the second part "No".

§ Mr. Leadbitter
Is my right hon. Friend aware that, of the number of hon. Members shouting at the moment a very large proportion was not here last night, and that at about one o'clock this morning, he himself noticed that only about 200 hon. Members were keeping the business of the House going, and that we are, therefore—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. We cannot have a resume of last night's proceedings. The hon. Gentleman must be brief.

§ Mr. Leadbitter
—Is he therefore aware that hon. Members who have not been in bed since Sunday night are quite prepared to stay here, and that the Leader of the Opposition is talking humbug?

Hon. Members
Where was he?

§ Mr. Crossman
I am well aware of what my hon. Friend says and I know that the vast majority of my hon. Friends are determined to complete our business as we planned.

§ Mr. Dance
What arrangements has the right hon. Gentleman made to relieve the intolerable burden of these long hours on the staff of the House of Commons in respect of this week's business?

§ Mr. Crossman
The arrangements being made by the Serjeant at Arms will be the same for the all-night sittings, if we have them, this week as they they were last week.

§ Mr. Hugh Jenkins
Is my right hon. Friend aware that, while hon. Members on this side want the Government to get their business and private Members to get theirs, there are two ways of doing this and that the way of extending this part of the Session into August might perhaps be the best way—

Hon. Members
No.

Hon. Members
Yes.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. Noise is no help. We all have emotions about the end of term.

§ Mr. Jenkins
Is my right hon. Friend not aware that, although there is no unanimity on this view, it is one which he should consider, because it would have the additional advantage of enabling me to complete the passage of the Employment Agencies Bill?

§ Mr. Crossman
I am aware of my hon. Friend's eagerness for that Bill, but I hope that he observed from the noise how impossible it would be to plan business according to the amount of disturbance made by hon. Members.

§ Sir T. Beamish
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that an all-night sitting on Thursday night could be avoided if be would accept the excellent advice contained in Motion No. 599, supported by hon. Members—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. This is not the normal Business question time, but the arrangement of business for today.

§ Mr. Biffen
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the somewhat protracted discussions on the Report stage of the Prices and Incomes (No. 2) Bill yesterday arose partly from speculation on both sides of the House on what the right hon. Gentleman actually said on Sunday? In consideration of this evening's business, and with a view to facilitating it, will he therefore undertake to participate in the debate?

§ Mr. Crossman
I am, of course, aware of the interest aroused in the House by my speech at Shrewsbury, but, if the hon. Gentleman asks me whether, on the Report stage of the Bill, we can stage a debate on what I said in that speech, I can only answer that it is for Mr. Speaker to declare what is and what is not in order.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I think that we have a little business ahead of us today.