HC Deb 25 January 1967 vol 739 cc1467-8
33. Mr. Gwilym Roberts

asked the Minister of Transport if she will give a general direction to British Railways to abolish the first and second class system of travel on British Railways and replace them with a one-class system, without loss of sleepers, reserved seats and other amenities.

Mr. John Morris

No, Sir.

Mr. Roberts

Would the Minister agree that British Railways are a social service and that anybody who pays his fare is entitled to first-class treatment? Would he further agree that it is ridiculous to have first-class compartments empty except for one or two hon. Members, when at the same time the tired commuter, the old and the infirm stand in second-class corridors?

Mr. Morris

I very much hope that British Railways give all their customers first-class treatment. This is a matter for management. I am informed that the proportion of seats is kept under constant review and whenever applicable it is adjusted to meet changes in current demand.

Mr. Longden

Does not the Question sum up Socialist philosophy in a nutshell? —because everybody cannot go to the Ritz, no one shall go to the Ritz? In other words, since excellence is the first casualty of equality, Socialism is the standard-bearer of the second-rate.

Mr. Morris

In his supplementary question, my hon. Friend showed a genuine and anxious concern for the old, the infirm and those without seats. I hope that it will not go out from this House that the hon. Member is not concerned to ensure that the old and the infirm have seats.

Mr. Mapp

Will my hon. Friend exclude the social nuances brought to this topic and ask the Railways Board to examine the operational savings, which are substantial arising from the principle here, pointing out to it that the London Transport Board and other commuter ser- vices are making very effective operating economies in this regard? Would he have this seriously examined?

Mr. Morris

The finances of British Railways as a whole are matters which the joint inquiry of which I am chairman is investigating. But in the past year the income from first-class seats amounted to some £20 million

Sir G. Nabarro

Is it not a fact that if first-class travel by rail were abolished the only financial effect would be to increase the deficit of British Railways beyond the figure of £100 million which it is today? Will the Parliamentary Secretary therefore resist Socialist egalitarianism and cause the railways to earn a profit commercially, which they should be able to do?

Mr. Morris

I repeat that this is entirely a matter for the management of British Railways.

Mr. Lubbock

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that all the services provided by British Railways from Orpington to termini in London are second-class, even though some are called first-class?

Mr. Morris

As a fairly regular traveller from very near the hon. Gentleman's constituency, I am aware of that