Clause 41.—(REGULATIONS AND ORDERS.) (Hansard, 24 January 1967)

HC Deb 24 January 1967 vol 739 cc1343-9 1343

§ Mr. Marsh
I beg to move Amendment No. 102, in page 32, line 19, after 'order' to insert: 'and the power conferred by section 44(4) of the 1949 Act to make rules'. This is purely a technical Amendment, the effect of which is to require that rules governing the procedure of the Arbitration Tribunal are made by Statutory Instrument subject to the negative Resolution procedure in the normal way.

§ Amendment agreed to.

§ Mr. Marsh
I beg to move Amendment No. 103, in page 32, line 23, after 'section' to insert: '(Publication by Corporation of lists of prices and conditions of sale and section'. 1344 This also is purely a technical Amendment, as is the next to follow, Amendment No. 104.

§ Amendment agreed to.

§ Further Amendment made: Amendment No. 104, in page 32, line 31, after '4', insert: 'and that conferred by the said section (Publication by Corporation of lists of prices and conditions of sale)'.—[Mr. Marsh.]

§ Schedule 2.—(TRANSITIONAL PROVISIONS IN CONNECTION WITH DISSOLUTION OF IRON AND STEEL BOARD.)

§ Dr. Bray
I beg to move Amendment No. 105, in page 37, line 25, at the end to insert: ( ) The last foregoing sub-paragraph shall not entitle the Corporation to see or take copies of anything in a document being a thing which, in the opinion of the Minister relates only to, or cannot conveniently be severed from a thing which relates only to, the affairs of a company referred to in sub-paragraph (1)(a) above, not being a company engaged in doing anything as a common service for iron and steel producers or any group thereof. This Amendment meets a point made in Committee. Hon. Members opposite were concerned that documents held by the Iron and Streel Board relating solely to companies which were not coming into public ownership should not be shown to the Corporation.

§ Amendment agreed to.

§ Schedule 3.—(AMENDMENTS OF REVIVED PROVISIONS OF 1949 ACT.)

§ Dr. Bray
I beg to move Amendment No. 106, in page 38, line 15, at the end to insert: Section 1(7) For the words from 'disclose the nature of his interest' to the end of the subsection there shall be substituted the following words 'declare the nature of his interest—
(a) if he is not the chairman, to the chairman;

(b) if he is the chairman, to the Minister;

(c) in any case, at a meeting of the Corporation;
and the member shall not take any part after making a declaration in pursuance of any of the foregoing paragraphs in any deliberation or decision of the Corporation with respect to that contract; and a declaration made in pursuance of paragraph (c) above shall be recorded in the minutes of the Corporation'. 1345 The question was raised in Committee whether, if a member of the Corporation found he had an interest in a contract and there was not a meeting of the Corporation for some time, embarrassment might arise for himself or the Corporation. This Amendment requires him to declare his interest to the appropriate person, so that there will be no embarrassment.

§ Amendment agreed to.

§ Mr. Michael Shaw
I beg to move Amendment No. 142, in page 46, line 49, after 'omitted' to insert: 'in the definition of "net revenue" there shall be added at the end the words "and including, in relation to any publicly-owned company and any subsidiary thereof and any company in which the Corporation has acquired or holds any interest, an estimate of the cost of any services provided by the Corporation to any such company according to the extent to which it shall have made use of the same "'. As usual, although this Amendment relates to Schedule 3, it has the effect of altering Schedule 4 as well. We seek to ensure that, when subsidiary companies of the Corporation have the benefit of common services supplied by the Corporation or other subsidiary companies of the Corporation, a fair charge is made to those companies for the cost of the services. We have in mind not only the common services existing at present—B.I.S.C. or B.I.S.R.A., methods of dealing with scrap, and so on—but also the fact that one of the stated objectives of this nationalisation Measure is the reorganisadon of the industry, from which there may well flow further common services which will be available to subsidiary companies, not only those directly in the iron and steel industry but others owned by the Corporation and making use of them. One thinks of the common use of computers, for example, which may well develop over the years.
There is a genuine fear strongly felt in the private sector that there will be inadequate costing on the part of some subsidiaries of the Corporation if there is no appropriate charge made in all cases for the use of these common services.

§ 7.0 p.m.

§ Mr. Marsh
As the hon. Gentleman says, this is a small Amendment, but quite an important one. With respect, though, it is based on a probable misreading of the Bill. The only places where the operative phrase "net 1346 revenue" is used in the Bill are in the provisos to Sections 18(2) and 19(2,a) of the 1949 Act revived. This is one of the problems of adopting this method of drafting the Bill. These sections are about dividends paid in respect of the period before vesting date when the Corporation does not hold any interest in companies, and there are, therefore, no circumstances in which the Amendment would apply.

§ Amendment negatived.

§ Mr. Freeson
I beg to move Amendment No. 112, in page 47, line 12, to leave out from '3' to the end of line 13 and to insert: 'after the word "shall", where first occurring, there shall be inserted the words "if the number of the members thereof exceeds ten, be such number, not being less than five, as the Corporation may from time to time determine and, if the number of the members thereof does not exceed ten"'. This Amendment, with which, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, it might be convenient to take Amendments Nos. 125 and 126, follows from the Amendment, made by the Committee which reduces the membership of the Corporation from 10 to 7. Under the 1949 Act as revived and amended by the Bill, provision was made that a quorum for the Corporation should be not less than five members. This was fixed when the maximum size of the Corporation could vary between 10 and 16, and it is obviously too high a figure if the membership comes near the new minimum of seven. On the other hand, it would be appropriate if the membership was more than 10.
The Amendment provides that if the membership, including the Chairman, does not exceed 10, the quorum shall be at a level fixed by the Corporation at not less than 3, but if the membership exceeds 10 the quorum shall be at a level fixed by the Corporation at not less than 5.

§ Mr. Speaker
I take it that the House has no objection to considering with this Amendment, Amendments Nos. 125 and 126?

§ Mr. Marsh
No.

§ Mr. Barber
No.

§ Amendment agreed to.

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§ Mr. Marsh
I beg to move, Amendment No. 113, in page 47, line 43, after 'stock', to insert: 'after the word, in sub-paragraph (2), "before" there shall be inserted the words "the day on which the last payment of interest fell to be made before" and for the words, in subparagraph (3), from "be added" onwards there shall be substituted the words "at the expense of the Corporation be distributed by them amongst the persons to whom payments were made under the foregoing provisions of this paragraph so that each of them receives in the aggregate the amount which he would have received had the amount paid as aforesaid been equal to the amount so found to have accrued"' This Amendment is rather more complicated. It deals purely with the rights of the holders of securities to be vested where the value of their securities is not settled by vesting day. It is purely to protect the position both on behalf of the banks who issue stocks, and those who deal with them.

§ Mr. Lubbock
Schedule 3 is practically incomprehensible. One must have the previous Act before one, and it is also necessary to have an amended copy of it. I do not think that many people looking through this Act will be able to understand it in the form in which it is presented to us. We have enough difficulty as it is. Will there be any document in which the amended provisions of the previous Act will be set out with such Amendments as are put into it by this Schedule?

§ Mr. Marsh
There is no specific intention to do that at the moment, but I shall, of course, look at it as a proposition. I think that on the whole most of the issues will be relatively easily understood by the sort of people who will have to deal with them. Whether a sort of "child's guide"—and I do not use the phrase offensively—should be produced is something which I am willing to consider.

§ Amendment agreed to.

§ Schedule 4.—(FORM IN WHICH PROVISIONS OF 1949 ACT HAVE EFFECT BY VIRTUE OF THIS ACT.)

§ Mr. Speaker
I am advised by the Opposition that they have no objection, if the Government have no objection, to taking all the Amendments to Schedule 4 together.

§ Mr. Marsh
indicated assent.

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§ Mr. Barber
With respect, Mr. Speaker, all the Amendments in the name of the right hon. Gentleman.

§ Mr. Speaker
The right hon. Member must trust the Chair.

§ Amendments made: No. 114, in page 50, line 4, leave out from 'knowledge' to end of line 9 and insert: 'declare the nature of his interest—

(a) if he is not the chairman, to the chairman;
(b) if he is the chairman, to the Minister;
(c) in any case, at a meeting of the Corporation;

and the member shall not take any part after making a declaration in pursuance of any of the foregoing paragraphs in any deliberation or decision of the Corporation with respect to that contract; and a declaration made in pursuance of paragraph (c) above shall be recorded in the minutes of the Corporation'. No. 121, in page 71, line 46, after 'section', insert: being machinery for operation at national level or works level or a level falling between those levels and appearing to the Corporation to be appropriate'. No. 122, in page 72, line 3, after 'maintenance', insert: 'for operation at any such level as aforesaid'. No. 123, in page 72, leave out lines 9 to 15 and insert:

(b) the promotion and encouragement of measures affecting efficiency, in any respect, in the carrying on by the Corporation and by publicly-owned companies of their activities, and the promotion and encouragement of measures affecting the safety, health and welfare of persons employed by the Corporation and by publicly-owned companies.

§ No. 124, in page 72, line 18, at end insert: (2A) Where it falls to the Corporation or a publicly-owned company to participate in the operation of machinery established under this section, and the operation involves discussion of a subject by other persons participating therein, the Corporation or, as the case may be, the publicly-owned company shall make available to those persons, at a reasonable time before the discussion is to take place, such information in their possession relating to the subject as, after consultation with those persons, appears to the Corporation or, as the case may be, publicly-owned company to be necessary to enable those persons to participate effectively in the discussion.

§ No. 125, in page 83, line 7, after 'shall', insert: 'if the number of the members thereof exceeds ten,'.

1349

§ No. 126, in line 9, after 'determine', insert: 'and, if the number of the members thereof does not exceed ten, be such number, not being less than three, as the Corporation may from time to time determine'.

§ No. 127, in page 85, line 14, after 'before', insert: 'the day on which the last payment of interest fell to be made before'.

§ No. 128, line 23, leave out from shall ' to end of line 25 and insert: 'at the expense of the Corporation be distributed by them amongst the persons to whom payments were made under the foregoing provisions of this paragraph so that each of them receives in the aggregate the amount which he would have received had the amount paid as aforesaid been equal to the amount so found to have accrued'.— (Mr. Marsh.)

§ Bill to be read the Third time Tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 174.]