HC Deb 20 February 1967 vol 741 cc1093-106

12.2 p.m.

Mr. John Fraser (Norwood)

I should like to take this opportunity to raise the question of the provision of underground train facilities in the Borough of Lambeth and other passenger facilities in that area. My hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary and I share the distinction of being, or having been, Governors of Tulse Hill Comprehensive School, which is in my constituency. Therefore, my hon. Friend will be able to listen to me, I hope with sympathy, and I know with experience, as I speak of the travelling facilities which exist throughout Lambeth going out to Norwood and to Crystal Palace.

What we need in Lambeth is not merely a comprehensive system of education, but also a much more comprehensive public transport system. Historically the underground system of London was developed and provided north of the River Thames. One needs only to look at a railway map to see that there is a proliferation of underground transport facilities north of the River Thames and very little to the south. The only lines serving the south are an extension of the District Line to New Cross, the Bakerloo Line, terminating unfortunately at the Elephant and Castle, and the Northern Line going out to Morden. It is a very great pity for the transport facilities of South London in general that the Bakerloo Line was not extended down to Camberwell Green through Peckham and out perhaps to Lewisham. If this had been done some years ago, the congestion in bus transport and other public transport in the south of London could have been avoided.

However, I want to speak, not of the Bakerloo Line, but of the Victoria Line. Once again, the construction of the Victoria Line from Victoria northwards illustrates the advantage that North London seems to have over the area south of the river. However, I hope that on this occasion the opportunity will be taken to roll the Victoria Line forward and to strike south to relieve the congestion and improve the poor facilities which exist in my borough and in other areas south of the river.

There has been no dispute as to the usefulness of bringing the Victoria Line to Brixton and perhaps beyond. A cost-benefit analysis has been carried out which has shown it to be a worthy project. Parliamentary powers exist for constructing the line as far as Brixton. Therefore, I want to deal, not with the need for the line, which I think is generally accepted, but with the reasons why an urgent decision should be taken now.

First, public transport facilities toward the Brixton area at least are congested and subject to delay and inconvenience. This is evidenced by paragraphs 46 and 47 of a Report of the Central Advisory Council on Transport, which speak of the highly increased difficulty in bus transport facilities because of congestion on the roads, because of delay, and because of the shortage of staff.

The second urgent reason for wanting a decision is that the Covent Garden Market is due to be moved from its present position to Nine Elms near Vauxhall. Already, there has been a great deal of congestion between Norwood, Brixton and Victoria, because the traffic must pass over Vauxhall Bridge. Therefore, if Covent Garden Market is situated at Nine Elms the congestion will be made even greater, and it would be logical to bring the Victoria Line to Brixton, and even beyond, and to provide a station at Vauxhall. After all, Covent Garden has a station of its own at the moment. There is no reason why the new Nine Elms Market should not have its own station.

Thirdly, Brixton and the areas around it badly need increased transport facilities. It is the sixth largest suburban centre in London. It is the third largest shopping centre south of the river. There are at peak hours 14,000 passenger car units on the roads per hour. At peak times in Brixton Road there are 5,000 pedestrians crossing the road per hour. A bus passes every 15 seconds. I mention these figures to illustrate the conflict between pedestrian, motor car and bus, and to illustrate the delay which is consequent upon that congestion and upon that conflict arising at the centre.

The fourth reason is that Brixton centre cries out for redevelopment. If there is to be a comprehensive development area order for that place, then I think it would be right to be able to phase underground transport facilities into that redevelopment.

The fifth reason why a decision is urgently wanted now is that the organisation exists with the construction of the Victoria Line, and it would be a great pity to disband the team of engineers, tunnellers, machinery and equipment. All these facilities exist at the moment. It would be wasteful and inefficient to allow the present Victoria Line to be completed and then to make a start at some future date on the extension to Brixton because it would be necessary to bring the machinery, the men and the labour teams together again. I understand that this would be a somewhat difficult process. It would be very wasteful if the people now assembled on the construction of the Victoria Line were to be disbanded. What is needed from the Minister is no more than what is needed from a blushing young girl—to say "Yes" and name the day. I hope that my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will be able to do that today.

Apart from extending the Victoria Line to Brixton I hope that the Minister will be able to give very earnest consideration to extending it beyond Brixton to Crystal Palace through West Norwood. The reason why I ask for this is that Crystal Palace is to be redeveloped as an international industrial exhibition centre. As well as already being a large sporting centre, with the recreation facili- ties which have been provided there by the Greater London Council, Crystal Palace is to become Britain's shop window to the world.

It would be very short-sighted if that shop window for the world was to be provided at Crystal Palace without adequate transport facilities. I therefore hope that Crystal Palace will be provided with a life-line to Central London. The architect of the Crystal Palace over 100 years ago designed a covered way to lead from Crystal Palace to the centre of London. I hope that this Government will be the architect of a new covered way, the extension of the Victoria Line as far as Crystal Palace.

Finally, apart from underground facilities in Lambeth, I hope that it will be possible to provide passenger interchange facilities at places like Waterloo, Brixton and Crystal Palace. It is no good having public transport facilities if ease of change cannot be arranged. Sometimes catching a bus in Brixton, Crystal Palace or Waterloo is about as messy and difficult as trying to catch a rabbit.

At Brixton there is the ideal opportunity to provide a passenger interchange facility—a sort of department store of public transport, where under the same roof a person would be able to get a train, or a motorway express bus, or a London Transport bus, or to get an underground train. It should be possible, with initiative and with imagination and guidance from the Ministry, to design a passenger interchange terminal—for instance, with the same booking hall for British Railways and for the underground, and where it would be highly convenient to change from one system of transport to another.

If public transport is to succeed, it must be convenient and it must even be glamorous. One certainly must be able to site the same facilities on the same spot. I hope that the Minister will exercise initiative in providing passenger interchange facilities at Brixton, where the new centre is being built—it would be possible to design it now—and, for instance, at Waterloo as well, where we could have a transport centre which was dedicated to the convenience of the travelling public. At Waterloo at present, one comes out of the station, and it is necessary to go out into the rain or the cold, perhaps, and start searching for a bus at the appropriate bus stop. At a place like that it should be possible to have the buses running into the station under cover so that the attractions of public transport are made as great as the attractions of the private car.

I hope that these facilities will be provided in Lambeth, and, if we could have passenger interchange facilities at Waterloo and Brixton as well, we should provide a blueprint for better interchange facilities for the travelling public throughout the rest of Britain.

12.10 p.m.

Mr. Marcus Lipton (Brixton)

My hon. Friend the Member for Norwood (Mr. John Fraser) has done a public service in bringing to the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary and the House the traffic needs of one of the most congested areas of London. It is unfortunate—it may have been a historical accident—that the Northern Line, to all intents and purposes, bypasses Brixton. South of the river, the Northern Line goes through the Oval down to Stockwell and then on to Clapham, by and large following the main Clapham Road. The Brixton Road, on the other hand, which also goes south, has no rail facilities comparable with the rail facilities enjoyed by people living along the line of the Clapham Road, which forms one of the boundaries of my constituency.

My hon. Friend has spoken of the difficulties encountered by travellers wanting to come to Brixton from the north side of the river. Many of them very wisely travel by underground, but if they want to get to Brixton or points immediately south they have to disembark at the Oval station. I should like my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to see what happens at the Oval station during the rush hour in the evening. People come out of the Oval station in droves. In order to travel on to Brixton, they have to cross two main roads, the Clapham Road and the Brixton Road. Having negotiated that hazard as best they can, they find themselves at the bus station at the northern end of the Brixton Road, and this happens to be the point at which London Transport changes its bus crews.

It not infrequently happens, when large numbers of people emerge from the Oval station in the hope of catching a bus to Brixton, Streatham or Croydon, as the case may be, that, by some misfortune, the crew which is supposed to take the arriving bus over is not there on time. Passengers may sit in the bus for minutes, or sometimes longer, before the bus crew which is supposed to be there turns up. It is unfortunate that this place, so close to the Oval station where so many people come out, is the nearest bus stop for the purpose of going on to Brixton and points south and is also the point at which bus crews change.

It is true that there are rail facilities on the Southern Region from Brixton to Victoria and vice versa, but the station in Brixton from which one can travel by overhead line to Victoria, though very centrally situated right in the heart of the Brixton market area, is a very old and antiquated structure. One has to go up flights of stairs, which are not easy for old people or youngsters to negotiate. This is one point where interchange facilities could well be provided. If the new underground station at Brixton on the Victoria-Brixton extension were so contrived as to be built underneath the present overhead station on the Brixton-Victoria line, there could be a simple and easy interchange of passengers wanting to go further south to places not conveniently served by bus routes.

My hon. Friend has referred to the enormous congestion in the Brixton Road particularly on Saturdays. In order to allow the traffic to get through, pedestrian guard rails have been erected along a considerable stretch of the Brixton Road. Otherwise, the pedestrians would overflow on to the road and traffic would not get through at all. I am sure that one of the busiest pedestrian crossings in London is the pedestrian crossing in the Brixton Road near the heart of Brixton running between Marks and Spencer's on one side of the road and Montague Burton's and the Brixton Market on the other. It is pretty clear to anyone who stands there on a Saturday that the estimate of 5,000 pedestrians crossing the road per hour must be an underestimate.

Although the red lights at that pedestrian crossing only hold good for a short time, the crowd of people crossing puts one in mind of the enormous numbers coming out of Wembley Stadium after a Cup Final match. A fantastic state of affairs is created. With this vast mass of pedestrians trying to cross the road, the result is that, even if the vehicular traffic is held up for only a few moments, a long trail of buses, cars, lorries and goodness knows what at once develops, stretching for a considerable distance both north and south of the pedestrian crossing.

It so happens that this pedestrian crossing, one of the busiest in London, as I say, is situated within a short distance, perhaps 200 yards or so, from two very congested traffic intersection points on either side. The one to the north is just outside Brixton Police Station where Stockwell Road, Brixton Road, Gresham Road and Canterbury Crescent all converge. There is a very great deal of right-turning, and the consequence of all the congestion on a Friday between five and six in the evening is that the traffic signal system is incapable of coping with the load. Traffic has to be manually controlled by two, three or even four policemen standing at the four intersection points.

South of the pedestrian crossing, 100 or 200 yards away, there is another very congested intersection at the corner of Brixton Hill, Acre Lane, Brixton Road, Coldharbour Lane and the little side street in front of the Tate Library. This is another equally congested area.

All this reinforces the argument that the only way to deal with the congestion in Brixton is to carry people underground and enable them to go through the area without having to congest the road with private cars, buses, pedestrian traffic and all the rest.

My hon. Friend made an important point when he stressed that the impending completion of the Victoria Line to the north-east of London will release a pool of highly-skilled labour and valuable machinery. It would be a thousand pities if all that concentration of men and machinery were allowed to disperse before it could be put on the job of constructing the Victoria-Brixton extension. If ever there were a form of hard labour which it is not always easy to obtain, it is the men who excavate in the underground tunnels. Whatever money they earn—and they earn good money of £40 and £50 a week-they are still underpaid, in my opinion, working in terribly hot conditions in most laborious circumstances. It is not a job I would recommend anyone to undertake, unless he was fighting fit and able to cope with the most adverse physical circumstances. I would like to see that same bunch of splendid fellows doing a bit of digging between Victoria and Brixton.

My hon. Friend also referred to the need for rapid and simple communications between the centre of London and the Crystal Palace. I hope that that more long-term plan will not frighten my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary from making a start with Brixton. But it would be a pity if the Crystal Palace development which is under consideration, and which has now started, should be hamstrung at the start by lack of easy approach from London.

One of the main reasons why Earls Court and Olympia are attractive as exhibition centres is the ease with which it is possible to arrive at them by underground. The police are able, very wisely, to close many of the streets in those areas when the Motor Show or some other big show is being held, without imposing hardship on motorists. Motorists can easily leave their cars well out of the areas and get to the exhibitions by underground, and therefore the police are amply justified in closing to all motor traffic 10, 15 or 20 streets, as the case may be, while the exhibitions which attract a large concourse take place.

My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will recall that not very long ago I put down one or two Questions to him about the date of a decision on the extension. I pointed out to him that I had been advocating the extension for about 20 years, and he consoled me with the thought that I would not have to wait another 20 years, that the file was getting near to the top of the pile on the desk of my hon. Friend the Minister of Transport. Perhaps the file is now right at the top, because the last time I raised the matter in the House my hon Friend said it would be only a few weeks before a decision was announced.

Perhaps it is too much to hope that he will be able to make a definitive announcement today. But if he can, he will transform a somewhat local, parochial debate into an epoch-making national pronouncement. I therefore hope that if he cannot make a specific announcement today of the date on which the new extension will be commenced, he will at least be able to give the House, my hon. Friend the Member for Norwood, myself and the people of Brixton encouraging news of the date in the near future when the announcement for which we have waited so many years will be made.

12.25 p.m.

Mr. Alan Lee Williams (Hornchurch)

I wish to raise two brief points, the first of which concerns the new Covent Garden site, which I understand will be situated at Nine Elms. I also understand that there will not be waterside facilities for lighterage or for passenger transport on the water. That point has a bearing on the transport problems of the Brixton area, because if transport can go on the river and not on the roads, where it would affect the buses and pressure on the roads, so much the better. Could my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary consider the lack of facilities for water exit from the new Covent Garden site, as it is clear that there will be increased pressure on the roads if there are no waterside facilities?

Secondly, educational facilities in the Brixton area are expanding greatly. The present Brixton School of Building will be expanded into a regional college, and it is going into a new building. There are already great problems for students getting to the present site at Brixton, and a difficult situation is developing, as I understand that it is impossible to start classes on time at the school because of the bad transport facilities from central London into Brixton, which have been emphasised by both my hon. Friends.

My most serious question concerns the lack of waterside facilities for lighterage and transport at Nine Elms, and I hope that my hon. Friend can look into that matter as I believe it to be most important in relation to the problems expressed by my two hon. Friends.

12.27 p.m.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Stephen Swingler)

My hon. Friend the Member for Norwood (Mr. John Fraser) was good enough to mention that I am acquainted with the transport facilities and traffic problems in the Borough of Lambeth. I was very pleased to serve for a short period up to October, 1964, on the governing board of the excellent and outstanding comprehensive school at Tulse Hill. Generally, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton) knows, I travelled to and from Tulse Hill by public transport and therefore I can claim, at any rate up to that time, a close acquaintanceship with the problems. I therefore well understand the reasons that impelled my hon. Friend the Member for Norwood to raise this subject this morning.

I hope to be able to show something of what is being done now to improve public transport in the Borough of Lambeth, which is an illustration of our approach to London as a whole. My hon. Friend the Member for Brixton implied that we were dealing with parochial problems, but they are also illustrative of the immense problem we have all over London of making a special effort to improve public transport and reduce congestion. No doubt, in the course of this week we shall hear a good deal more on the general subject of London's problems as a whole.

I want to make two points immediately. First, like my hon. Friend the Member for Norwood, I propose to deal with British Rail services as well as with London Transport underground services. There is nothing magical about underground services as such although, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brixton said, they offer the opportunity of getting some people away from the congestion on the surface. What people want are good rail services, whether they are underground or on the surface.

Secondly, the provision of transport services is a matter for the operators. Several of the points raised by my hon. Friends are matters of managerial responsibility for those responsible for operations, whether in the headquarters of the British Railways Board or London Transport. I shall make a special point of drawing the attention of those concerned to the particular and detailed matters which my hon. Friends raised.

My right hon. Friend has a close interest both because of the general responsibility for the nation's transport and the important function she has to exercise over such matters as major investment. But, in the last resort, much of the initiative must come in flexible arrangements made by London Transport and British Railways.

On behalf of the two nationalised boards concerned, I claim at once that Lambeth is already unusually well endowed with rail facilities. It has London Transport's Northern and Bakerloo lines. It has the great terminus and interchange point of Waterloo. It has the special underground link to the City from Waterloo, and it has a large number of other British Rail stations enjoying excellent services, giving passengers a choice of terminal station in Central London. I mention Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham Common and West Norwood purely as examples. Even so, the responsible authorities plan to improve still further public transport in this area: and I now turn from the present situation to the future.

First, the underground. My hon. Friend pressed for an early and favourable decision on London Transport's proposal to extend the Victoria Line to Brixton. My hon. Friend the Member for Brixton claims to have been pressing for this for a couple of decades. I do not think that I shall altogether surprise him by saying that I am afraid that I am not in a position to give the decision today. But perhaps I can elevate my hon. Friends' hearts a little by assuring them that an announcement on this subject will be made by my right hon. Friend very soon indeed.

I admit at once that we have been mulling over this proposal of London Transport's for a considerable time. I make no apology for that. It raised many and difficult problems. At the present time, all proposals for major investments like this must, of course, be scrutinised with unusual care and this is a question of £16 million. But I can tell my hon. Friends that, in reaching her decision, my right hon. Friend will have regard not only to the financial results of the project in the accounts of London Transport, but also—which is most important—to the wider question of social benefits such as time saving, reductions in road casualties, the need to attack the problem of congestion, etc. All these factors would flow from the building of this new line.

Of course, my right hon. Friend will have very much in mind the question of the relationship between the provision of transport facilities and new developments. Both my hon. Friends have raised questions on which I am not in a position to give a detailed answer at the moment. But I can tell them that all these matters are being studied very closely because we know that one of the greatest mistakes made in the past lay in the failure to plan at one and the same time the developments which occurred and the travel facilities that ought to go with them. These are mistakes that we do not intend to repeat.

Other possible extensions of the underground system could bring benefits to the Lambeth area. These lie a bit further ahead. One possibility mentioned is the extension of the Bakerloo Line southwards from the Elephant, but I cannot say at present that this has a high priority with London Transport. There may, of course, be developments which will alter that but, in any case, a major extension here could not be contemplated in present circumstances because it would lead to intolerable overloading of the Central London section of the Bakerloo Line.

I now turn to the services provided by British Rail. My hon. Friends will remember the major survey of passenger requirements which Southern Region carried out in 1964. Last year, my right hon. Friend approved the investment by the Region of almost £500,000 in physical works so as to enable the service to be improved and reshaped in the light of that survey. In July this year, a new timetable made possible by these improvements in the system will be introduced. It will provide for an increase of almost 20 per cent. in the number of seats on trains arriving at the Region's London termini in the morning peak hour. This very substantial improvement will certainly be felt in Lambeth—for example, on the line from Herne Hill to Victoria.

In addition, the Southern Region is currently engaged on detailed planning of further major improvements in its capacity which such developments as the new town at Thamesmead will make necessary. This planning is still at an early stage but it is already clear that really major investments—of the order of £10 million or more—may be called for, and therefore my hon. Friends will realise that further announcements will shortly be made concerning this. The effect of improvements on this scale would, of course, be felt in Lambeth.

My hon. Friend called for improved facilities in Lambeth for interchange between one form of transport and another. I agree that better interchange facilities are needed and I will try to tell him what is being done. My right hon. Friend set up about a year ago the Transport Co-ordinating Council for London. The Council operates through five working groups. One of these is the Interchanges Group, whose terms of reference are: to examine and keep under review facilities for interchange between elements of the transport system and to recommend a programme of improvement in relation to present and future transport demands". On this group are representatives of the major interests with executive responsibilities for transport in London—The Greater London Council, London Transport, British Rail and the Ministry. The Group has immediately turned its attention to the practical question of actually improving on the ground physical interchange arrangements between different forms of transport. For example, one of its working parties is studying the situation at Waterloo, with special reference to the need for more convenient interchange between rail and bus services. I may say at this point that London Transport hope that the next Red Arrow services to be introduced will operate to and from Waterloo.

So my hon. Friends will see that we have a special study going on into interchange problems. The Interchanges Group has also been considering how interchange might be improved at Brixton itself and will quite certainly take into account what my hon. Friend the Member for Brixton has said.

Mr. Lipton

The interchange at the Oval is one of the most difficult aspects of the problem at Brixton. People have to walk quite a distance from the station to get on buses for Brixton. Could not, as a temporary measure, some buses be diverted so that one could come out of the Oval station and get on a bus for Brixton without having to cross two main roads, which is particularly unpleasant on a wet night?

Mr. Swingler

That is exactly the kind of thing that the Interchanges Group is studying and I assure my hon. Friend that I will draw its attention to this point. I know that it is studying the problems of Brixton and it may well be, as we have found in other places, that a new scheme regarding the siting of particular kinds of facilities can be made and negotiated between those concerned.

Much depends on whether the Victoria line extension goes ahead. If it does, major improvements to interchange facilities will be possible. The G.L.C.'s motorway box is planned to pass through Brixton, and Lambeth Borough Council has plans which could provide excellent facilities for interchange between car and tube, car and rail and bus and rail if the underground were extended. There could also be interchange arrangements at Stockwell and Vauxhall.

I hope, therefore, that I have said enough to make it clear to my hon. Friends not only that the Government and other responsible authorities are determined to improve public transport in this part of London, but also that significant and worthwhile improvements are receiving serious consideration and will be the subject of announcements in the very near future.